Type of bolts, break drum forge???

[Kailthir]

OK I am attempting to build my forge. It is a brake drum forge. Been researching for about 6 months now. I am now at the point in my life where I now have the time to get into the craft.

My question is:.... What type of bolts can I use to fasten the flange to the break drum? I know zinc and galvanized metal is a no-go in the forge. I know stainless steel will melt in such a high temp. Problem is I cannot find bolts that aren't either coated with zinc or galvanized. Where are people getting these nuts and bolts that are safe and wont melt? If I had a welder I would teach myself how to weld and just weld the thing together.

Also every now and then I see people building the piping out of what looks like galvanized steel. Isn't this dangerous and potentionally fatal?

So far I have the break drum, cost me $5. I went on line to Home Depot and have on order (haven't placed the order yet cause I keep thinking of stuff I need lol):

-Welding gloves, apron, file set, 2 pails (one for water and one for oil), coal pail, stainless steel wire brush, fire brick, 6" heavy duty bench vice, 40oz Estwing cross peen hammer, 32oz Estwing ball peen hammer, welding sleeves, eye pro, 4,000 watt generator (for electric tools and an electric blower), 4-1/2 in. 80-Grit (Medium) Grinding and Polishing Flap Disc, for my angle grinder to dress the hammers ......Am thinking on making the table and forge structure out of stone. I have stone left over from making a small wall that keeps the yard from washing into the driveway. Still not sure on this. I only have carpentry tools like drills and saws etc.

Anyways, if I am forgetting something please let me know, or if I am wrong on the tools I have chosen. I haven't bought the stuff yet except the break drum. The other stuff is in my shopping cart lol. Oh and I need an anvil. I have a line of a free one for a co-worker. He said it was his grandfathers. I haven't seen it yet but since I still cant find one after looking for 6 months, free is better than nothing, no matter what its condition. I don't have the money to buy a brand new anvil. Haven't found hot punches or hot cutting tools yet either.

Sorry for the long winded post. Just trying to start off on the right foot with the minimum to start out. Plan on forging my tongs and tools to cut on costs. Again if I am missing something please let me know please.

 

EDIT as suggested: I am in the Fort Drum/Watertown, NY area. I retired from the US Army. Now I don't know what to do with myself so figured blacksmithing would be a good fun hobby lol.

 

 

 

 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many Iforge folk live within visiting distance.

WOW you've put together quite a kit already. What size or kind of bolts you attach our air supply to the fire pot isn't all that necessary as it's not under much stress but yeah, find some plain unplated ones. You may need to buy online if there isn't a McMaster Cars, Fastenall, etc. near you. Staying away from galvy isn't too important with the tuyere (air supply) under the fire pot as it isn't going to get hot, even if you have live coals fall into the ash trap it won't get hot enough to burn zinc.

Things like punches, chisels, etc. are good beginner projects when you get proficient enough with the basics to start thinking about heat treating. Keep your eyes open for coil springs made from stock in the 1/2" - 5/8" dia. rd. Straightened out and forged to general shape it then gives you practice hot rasping or grinding to finished shape BEFORE heat treatment. Spring steels tend to be more forgiving of heat treat mistakes. Coil spring also makes excellent tongs you can make them light weight and being springy they will still let you grip the stuffings out of your work without bending. Just remember to keep them from getting to red heat or if they do throw them on the floor to cool. This prevents them over hardening and becoming brittle.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Glenn]

A 32 oz or 2 pound hammer is a good place to start. Visit a flea market to find one at little or no cost. Wooden handles are preferred.

Find a blacksmithing group or organization near you and go to the meetings. You will learn more in a day  than you can imagine. THEY have many of the tools that you are looking for and can help find others. Usually used and on the tailgate of a pickup truck, so the price is reasonable.

Welcome to the site.

[RobbieG]

5 hours ago, Kailthir said:

I know stainless steel will melt in such a high temp.

 

 

 

 

Normal A2 (304) stainless has a melting point of about 1450C, you will be fine with those

[timgunn1962]

As RobbieG says, type 304 stainless melts by about 1450 degC (It's a non-eutectic alloy, so doesn't have a melting "point" as such). It will go pasty and become progressively more liquid as the temperature rises between about 1400 degC and 1450 degC.

The brake drum itself is likely to be a gray cast iron, with a melting point or range somewhere closer to 1200 degC, perhaps as high as 1250 degC.

Pure metals and eutectic alloys have definite melting points. Non-eutectic alloys have melting ranges. 

 

[Buzzkill]

If all you can find is galvanized bolts then toss them in a container of vinegar for a day or two, rinse with water, hit them with some baking soda on a tooth brush, rinse again and use them. The vinegar will strip the zinc off the bolts and the baking soda will neutralize the residual acid from the vinegar.

[Daswulf]

Kailthir welcome aboard. Like Glenn said, visit some fleamarkets, yard sales and estate auctions. Old hammers, files, punches, chisels and other tools are abundant there and usually cheap. Especially if your going to be refacing the hammers to suit your needs anyway.  For the files you'll want to get a file card to clean them. 

Some tools in my opinion it just pays to buy new and quality, like the 4 1/2" grinder. 

For the oil, you may want something with a lid so #1 you can close it if it lights up and #2 so you don't accidentally kick it over and have a oily mess to clean up or a potential spreading oil fire. I use a tall ammo can. Oh yeah. A fire extinguisher is good to have too.   

As for the bolts I think most would be fine if they arnt right in the air grate. 

 

[Kailthir]

I did not know one could strip the galvanization or zinc off bolts. Good info to have. Great idea on the flea markets as well. I have been looking for them in the area. Unfortunatly I haven't seen any. I did notice that I have run into a snag in my quest to plan all this out before I go on a big shopping spree lol. I over looked probably the biggest issue when smithing indoors.... the chimney.

I failed to incorporate a chimney into my building plans. I know I needed one, and I thought about it and said to myself... "I'll put a chimney in and vent to smoke thru the roof of the carriage house and I will be fine" unfortunately I didn't actually fun the dimentions or length or think about anchoring it on the roof or anything like that... just made a mental note that I need one lol.  Back to the old drawing board I guess. Over 2 decades in the army has taught me to plan everything out and have a back up plan for the back up plan, before any action is taken. Cuts down on the "OH S#*%T" factor created by Murphy's Law lol.

Anyways thanks so far for the suggestions, it is much appreciated. Apparently I still have some planning and kinks to work out in my design for the shop before I can get started building.

 

1 minute ago, Daswulf said:

For the oil, you may want something with a lid so #1 you can close it if it lights up and #2 so you don't accidentally kick it over and have a oily mess to clean up or a potential spreading oil fire. I use a tall ammo can. Oh yeah. A fire extinguisher is good to have too.   

As for the bolts I think most would be fine if they arnt right in the air grate. 

 

I did think about the fire extinguisher and forgot to add it to the list on my first post. It is on my list of things to buy. Great idea for a lid. I will incorporate that into the build. I just thought of something else... I suppose the water and oil can I am using for quenching cant be galvanized or plated either right?

[Daswulf]

I've used galvanized buckets for quenching. It won't get hot enough to burn the zinc off. You would have to get the metal really hot to burn off zinc. 

[Kailthir]

DASWULF... Maybe I am starting to over think this too much lol. Just don't want to go on a shopping spree and start building and set up stuff and then realize I forgot or missed some important issues.. especially safety issues. I guess the only think to do is start building and putting the shop together. If I wait till I plan out every miniscule thing.. it will never get built.

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Brake drums are a PITA to make forges out of compared to other methods. Look at Glenn's 55 forge series. An oil drain pan, some exaust pipe and some dirt will do to get you started. 

From one old grunt, thanks for your service. 

[Daswulf]

Very true. Start with your PPE. design your forge and hood. Then get a hammer, find something good to use as an anvil and start with some basics. You will see what you Need as you go.  Most things Can be sourced for free or cheap. 

Start with the basics and build your way up. There is a lot of good info on here for forge making and hoods. Vent pipe should be no less then 10", 12" is better.

look at the space you have to work in and search around for others setups to see where you might want to put your equipment. Forge is #1 preferably if you vent yours out through the roof you only want to cut it once.  So placement of that should be thought out. 

I prefer a brake rotor over a drum but others have preferences as well  Charles has a good method as well. 

Do some research and see what works for you with what you can source. 

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

So perminant or portible forge? Coal, coke, charcoal, corn, wood scrap or acombination...

we will be glad to help just do a bit of home work so we are all speaking the same language.

[Frosty]

Over thinking things is a common newcomer mistake in any trade so is trying to get everything you THINK you need before you start learning the craft. I have a bunch of stuff I thought I'd need gathering dust. Take it slow and easy, build something simple and easy, build a fire and start making things. Shop hardware is a great place to start, hooks to hang your coat, apron hammers, tongs, etc.are excellent learning projects. Once you have wall hooks down maybe a couple few shelf brackets to hold your growing blacksmith/note/sketch books, album, etc. library. Don't forget one for the coffee maker!

You don't need a lot to do quality blacksmithing, something heavy and hard to be the anvil, something to beat with almost any smooth faced hammer works just fine and NO not something HEAVY, around 32oz. is a good weight to learn hammer control and not tire or injure yourself with. I recommend drill hammers. Uh, side tracked myself the next requirement to blacksmith is a HOT fire. Something to hold the work when it's hot is good but you can use long stock and not need tongs, for a while at least. Then you need something to cut with, flea market, yard, garage etc. sale chisels are just fine, look for punches and handleless hammers while you're browsing.

That's it though, a fire, something for an anvil, a hammer and something to hit it with and you're off and smithing. The tools aren't nearly as important as a person thinks. Pick up a copy of "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" by Alexander Weygers to get an idea of what's involved in boot strapping yourself into a metal shop.That's a good book for your soon to be shelf.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mark Ling]

As for a way to get rid of the smoke and fumes, I would recommend making a super sucker side draft. It works well, and is simple to make.

Also, check your scrap yards. its hard for me to leave mine without I chisel, punch, hammer, etc... its also a good place for all types of odd items, and if your lucky may find an anvil, or vice, though don't get your hopes up. Let the workers at the scrap yard now what your looking for, and they may be able to help, and even save some goodies for you as they come in, just be sure to give them something in return, and you can be sure that they'll keep finding you stuff.

                                                                                                        Littleblacksmith

[Kailthir]

1 hour ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

So perminant or portible forge? Coal, coke, charcoal, corn, wood scrap or acombination...

we will be glad to help just do a bit of home work so we are all speaking the same language.

Perminat. It will be in my carriage house in the back yard. Coal/coke.

CHARLES:... Thank You for your service as well. Old Infantry Paratrooper here. You know the grunt mentality... if it don't work.. beat on it till it does.... might as well beat on some iron till it works itself into something useable/beautiful. lol

[Latticino]

Suggest that before you spend a lot of money and time on putting together your kit for smithing that you investigate joining, or at least attending a meeting, of the local chapter of the New York State Designer Blacksmiths (NYSDB) group.  I believe that the Adirondack region chapter in pretty close to you: http://www.nysdb.org/regions/adirondack/.  You can attend your first two meetings for free and learn quite a bit from this knowledgeable and friendly group.  Getting info online is great, but hands on experience can't be beat.  If you are up for a road trip, we have our annual picnic with the Niagara group in Buffalo this Sunday.

[Kailthir]

Ok update, Not going to make this perminat at the moment. Going to convert and old gas grill to a brake drum forge to start with. Once I figure out what I want and can afford I will make a brick side draft forge. I was looking too big at the start.. little steps and then build up from there. I think that will be a better plan. I know what I want and had a vision.. but Rome wasn't built in a day and neither can this.