Forges 101

[Mr. B]

My mistake, apologies. The guy on  eBay is named Mike.

I tried to down load your book,  it's on AMAZON for $153.00.   Not sure I could swing that.  ;-) 

 

Rereading so my Burners are "Mikey burners" that means they are also not so good?

[Mikey98118]

In the Book i called them high speed tube burners; Apparently people found that to be a mouthful. Somebody called them Mikey burners, because I use my nickname online; and yes, I got dubbed that immediately after the infamous Life cereal commercial came out. Imagine a whole shipyard full of guys thinking a sweetheart like me "hates everything"? Frosty burners; Mikey burners. My first name could have been Ass; then they would call them...

Anyway, anyone who likes can call their designs Mikey burners; and some do. They may be okay; eBay is a lot tougher market then most buyers know. If the seller has been around very long, he or she has had to run the gauntlet.

[Mr. B]

 So they are your burners, just not made by you? 

If you ever want to post your Forge build on YouTube I know there are most likely a few hundred thousand Newbie souls out there that would surely grab a cuppa and sit down to watch........... Just sayin. 

 

Thanks again for your help. Much appreciated.

[ede]

Mr. B,

To help clarify, no they are not "Mikey Burners".  If you look within iforgeiron, there are innumerable pages on forge building with experts all around the world.  It's easy to ask, but you can do the same thing with the search bar and I guarantee, you will find your answers.  

Regarding youtube, and Mikey telll me if I speak out of turn; why should a published author make videos on how he make his burners, especially if doesn't manufacture them for sale?  

The truth is, there is all the information you need here.  I for one am sick of the so many self proclaimed experts on youtube.  There's millions that are doing it, but a handful that are doing it right.  Go to the source and don't waste your time with amateurs spoon feeding what they don't know.  

[Mikey98118]

Well, the first forge build was done under contract; the publisher didn't allow anything posted, unless he was doing the posting. But this summer's forge won't be featured in a book, so why not? It is just being made a a test bed for a few ideas. But all those guys don't need youtube. There are some very fine forges posted on this site. Some of them have been a revelation to me, and I ain't easy. That is what is great about this group; nobody knows so much that some of the sharper characters here can't teach him new tricks.

[Mikey98118]

Actually, if one simply inputs Mikey burners, a guy on the web, who understands how to build them, did dis own video. He changes a couple of minor things, and states that he did so, and how his burners differ from mine. His video and what is posted on Burners 101 thread makes it easy to build my burners with full confidence.

Since the eighties there has been a lot over tension of author's rights Vs the rights of people to  access information that should never have been hoarded away in the first place. Both sides have a legitimate point, and both sides use those points to obscure their own wrongs. Throughout most of history knowledge was power, and power always leads to abuse; it is still abused by its hoarders. The other side tries to justify stealing the works of better men, by contending that two wrongs make a right.

As an author I know first hand just how very much work goes into an honest book, and I feel I should be paid for doing it. However, trying to force people to buy my books to learn how to build something is NOT my right. Nobody needs any more middle men trying to enforce tolls on the road of learning. So the "secret ingredients" for burner construction I freely post on line. The thousand and one answers to questions that people never bother to ask, along with over a hundred drawings I had to make was real work, which I sell. This is the Mikey solution for today's great debate; right or wrong, I'm comfortable with it

[Mr. B]

Then you could most certainly answer a question I had on tube design. The gas nozzle/orifice is above the air ports in my "Mikey Tubes" and gas passes by the holes, (I assume making a vacuum) and speeds up through the Venturi, BUT I have also seen tubes built with the gas-orifice just below the air-inlet holes. Those I assume suck air from behind the gas-jet.

You see every once in awhile, and most of the time before I dialed the burners in, gas would get expelled from the holes and ignite. It was unsettling to say the least to have gas and blue flame shooting out of the holes so close to the orifice.To solve this issue I was going to lengthen the nozzle past the holes, but didn't want to screw with the physics already in the design. You know, since I don't have a clue about such things at this point.

 

 

[bengriswold]

On 3/26/2017 at 3:29 PM, iamjoe said:

My forge build. It has a lot of room for improvement but it's more than what I had.

That looks real nice and simple and real hot.  I am curious what are the things you want to improve?  Great Job.  

[Mr. B]

Niice.......

[Mikey98118]

"Then you could most certainly answer a question I had on tube design. The gas nozzle/orifice is above the air ports in my "Mikey Tubes" and gas passes by the holes, (I assume making a vacuum) and speeds up through the Venturi, BUT I have also seen tubes built with the gas-orifice just below the air-inlet holes. Those I assume suck air from behind the gas-jet."

I see a lot of confusion in your technical Jargon. "Mikey tubes"? My designs have been dubbed Mikey burners. I define them as straight tube burners, to distinguish them for Hybrid burners, which have large enclosed air  and gas intake chambers, and from various linear burners, which all feature reducers as their air intakes. Gas pass into the mixing tubes on my burners, inducing air from rectangular air openings, which are mostly behind the gas stream, with only about 1/4" of the air openings are ahead of the gas jet. There are no HOLES  through which air is passed into the burner; any such design is no part of a Mikey burner. The manufacturer can call them Micky Mouse burners, or Donald Duck burners if he likes; that doesn't make it true!

You see every once in awhile, and most of the time before I dialed the burners in, gas would get expelled from the holes and ignite. It was unsettling to say the least to have gas and blue flame shooting out of the holes so close to the orifice.To solve this issue I was going to lengthen the nozzle past the holes, but didn't want to screw with the physics already in the design. You know, since I don't have a clue about such things at this point.

I don't think whoever put your burners together had a clue either; sorry. But all the good will in the world won't turn a pig's ear into a silk purse. The best use of your time would be to  use what parts aren't junk on your burner, and replace the mixing tube with some reasonable design; anything but a bunch of holes; they belong in Swiss cheese; not burner tubes. Do you have to go to all the work to replace the mixing tubes with my rectangular wholes? Certainly not. You could rebuild them into "Z" burners, "T", or Reil burners; your choice, and none of them are hard to make.

 

:Holes!? We don't need no stinking holes!"

 

 

Nice forge Joe.

[Mr. B]

Gotchya, thanks for the help.

[Mikey98118]

Supercharging Forge heat with propylene

There has been a lot of discussion lately about whether or not well known forges will get hot enough to suite buyers. Also there are apparently lots of Canadians who don't want to face heavy shipping charges and import duties to buy American made forges; these legitimate concerns don't need to be a problem.

Propylene is a fuel gas that is made in Canada; down here in the U.S. it costs about one-third more than propane, and burns at about one-third higher temperature, so economically propylene in regular industrial cylinders from a welding supply store, should not present an economical hardship. But what advantage doe it provide? Nobody says you need to turn up your burner's gas pressure as high as you as you would with propane; just turn it up high enough to give the forge a little extra heat to do the job you need handled. You will still end up paying less to use this fuel, because it will take a lot less time to do your work.

Warning: Don't use propylene at the same gas presure you are used to using with propane, or you may burn up that forge!

[iamjoe]

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 1:18 PM, bengriswold said:

That looks real nice and simple and real hot.  I am curious what are the things you want to improve?  Great Job.  

Thanks. I think I will put doors on it. Don't want to tighten it up too much but some. At some point cast a floor in it if not coat the whole thing. Maybe a reflective coating of sone kind after that. 

On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 2:23 AM, Mikey98118 said:

Nice forge Joe.

Thank you Sir. 

[Mikey98118]

Joe,

Lots of people don't want to build their heating equipment. Most of them end up needing to improve on what they buy. I once used propylene for  braze welding with my burners, because propane is just too slow outside of a forge. These days, I just keep it on hand "in case". If I ever get time to write a text on oxy-fuel cutting and welding, I will end up using lots of it. In the meantime it gathers dust in my garage, along with the oxygen tank, and box of torches.

[Mikey98118]

Silica solutions are unstable at pH levels between 4 and 7.2. The results of pH levels are accelerated with particulates small enough to be colloidal; also in highly concentrated solutions. How acidic tap water is varies from place to place; it isn’t uncommon for it to be seven on the pH scale. Here we see the two probable reason for warnings of shelf life on colloidal silica products. I bought a bottle of rigidizer many years ago from Seattle Pottery Supply, and it is still good. But if a seller didn't include the right amount of acid in to a  concentrated product, when thinning it down for resale, a much shorter shelf life would result; ditto for the concentrate that is allowed to set very long before being thinned with additional water. What to do? Buy your fumed silica in dry form, and only mix up as much at a time as you plan to use over a short period.

[Ricko13]

As per a request from Mikey, here's a list of item to look for when building your own forge for us Canadians. Sometimes getting items will still require a bit of "google-fu", but there's a lot of good resources on other forums that hold key pieces of information

Here's a quick list of things I went through, and hope it helps you:

Steel piping (for the burners) was oddly very hard to find for me in my area, but thankfully Home Hardware lets you order online and deliver to a store near you. I even ordered the mig tips etc from there, it's conviniant - www.homehardware.ca

Kaowool - there's two sources on the east coast area that we could use - https://tuckerspotteryeshop.com/ or http://sial-canada.com/en/produitsDetails.php?nProductId=4530 - they both deliver. I used Tucker and got it under 2 days.

The fittings to connect everything, the best is to find a local propane supplier / expert (I used Propane Outaouais, very helpful people, but they are local to me). Because we are in Canada, it's regulation to keep the tanks OUTSIDE, so they helped me out with getting long hoses etc. Heres information on that - http://propane.ca/safety-regulation/ - and by province: http://propane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/CPA_Fact-Sheet_Regulatory-Authorities-Having-Jurisdiction_August-2016.pdf

The rigidizer, I did a bit of research and found some Hydrophilic (NOT HYDROPHOBIC) Fumed Silica on ebay from the UK for very cheap (it's VERY light, you should pay almost no shipping). I will need to understand a bit more how to mix it all up, but I have this wonderful forum to help me.

For the refracting cement and ITC stuff - I just went with Wayne Coe - very helpful guy and the price was decent - http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Forge_Supplies.html

As for fire bricks, Reno Depot, Home Depot, Rona... they all have it... they are about 6$ and will work for doors (they won't last too long though, but it's a good start).

[Mikey98118]

Ricko13,

Thank you for the suggestions. "Google-fu"; is that what I've been wrestling with all these years

[Square Nail]

Not sure if this is the right spot or not, but I have started my forge build and would like to document it on here as I go along. With Mikey's and Frosty's how to info, it should be a fairly simple and straightforward process. Is this the best place to post pics as I go through the process?

[JHCC]

On 5/8/2017 at 2:10 AM, Square Nail said:

 Is this the best place to post pics as I go through the process?

 Probably best to start a new thread. Keep it in the same Gas Forges section, and give it a title like "Building a New Gas Forge (pic heavy)". That way, people can discuss the specifics of that individual build without clogging up the discussion on this (already tremendously long) thread.

[Square Nail]

On 5/8/2017 at 7:05 AM, JHCC said:

quotes removed

Thanks, will do!

[Mberghorn]

Okay fellas, I need a bit more guidance but this one is opinion based. So the forge that is in my profile picture is a three burner forge that I made out of a 20 gal (I think) barrel that I got for free. I did some research online before building it but I hadn't yet discovered these pages when I built it. It gets hot enough to forge but not nearly enough to weld. Part of that is due to my poor burner construction (my fault for trying to change something in the design plans for a side arm burner from Ron Reil's site) and the other part is due to how my forge is lined.

I took the burners out so I could rebuild them and during that I found these pages. Now after moving everything over to my new house and pouring over these pages I've come to see the error in my ways as far as my build. That being said, before I get up and running at the new place I have to re line my forge.

Here is the opinion based part. I hear lots of people talk about Mizzou and Kast-O-Lite 30. I've never worked with either one and the refractory I have now is the Red Devil 3000* F stuff but I've come to the consensus that I can't (or at the very least shouldn't) use that as the sealer coat over my blanket. Which one works better in you guys' opinions for a sealer coat between the IR coat and the blanket? Also could I use one of these for my floor or is it still better to get a high alumina kiln shelf?

On a side note I just picked up a 30 lb propane tank that failed it's hydrostatic test so I'll be building a new forge soon. Now I just have to figure out if I wanna put a ribbon burner in my old big forge and use the NA burners for my smaller one. I'll be sure to post pics when I start. Thanks again for all the help, guys!!

[Frosty]

I just Googled "Red Devil 3000* F" and didn't dig deep enough to find the analysis so I don't know if it's silicate bonded or not. If it's a high silica refractory welding flux will erode it rather quickly. The closest Meeco product to the description is a refractory cement not a lining material. It's for cementing bricks and patching small flaws not a material designed to line furnaces. 

Meeco offers a 4,000f castable refractory if it's a high alumina or phosphate bonded castable it's suitable for a forge inner liner, Flame face.

Kast-O-Lite 30 is popular for two reasons: 1, it's high alumina so isn't subject to caustic erosion caused by forge welding fluxes. 2, it's a better insulator than refractories not containing evacuated spheres. Lastly and not so significant for our purposes, except maybe for really BIG forges, it's lighter in weight.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mberghorn]

On 5/10/2017 at 2:50 PM, Frosty said:

 

I looked at the stuff I have when I got home and you're right it is a refractory cement. I went and bought some zircopax and kaolin from www.theceramicshop.com and some kast-o-lite 30 from www.hightemptools.com last night so I'll just have to wait until they get here to continue on. 

Is it okay to cast my floor with the kast-o-lite or is it still adviseable to use a high alumina kiln shelf cut to size? Thanks again!

[Mikey98118]

The only side-arm burners I'm aware of on the Reil site is a terrible design; they are the reason for Larry Zoeler's redesign, which he dubbed modified side-arm burners; he then discovered his hotter and easier to construct "Z" burners. Reil's original burner design is a better burner than an unmodified side-arm burner; if you include the MIG tip modification I posted on his site, his burner will blow any side-am burner off the road. So will a Frosty "T" burner. Does this give you a heavy handed clue as to what is probably wrong with your forge?

[Frosty]

Mel: KasT-O-lite of any type is high alumina with a working temperature higher than you're likely to ever get from a home made propane burner. The floor of my current forge and those to come is KasT-O-lite-30. Again, the jury is out about how well incorporating Zircopax in the surface layer of the hard refractory works.

Mike: I haven't seen Ron's reference to a "side arm" burner on his site. How long has it been there? I know when Robert Grauman first put one together it wasn't nearly what it could have been and it's improved significantly over the years. The first I knew he misinterpreted how I meant to mount a pipe T on the tube was when he sent me a picture of the 1 1/4" one in his iron melter. He was making 20lb. pours with a single 1 1/4" "side arm".

Frosty The Lucky.