breaker sizes

[eseemann]

On 6/9/2016 at 5:47 PM, Steve Sells said:

and as an Electrician I get that a lot also. usually the "You can reuse this wire I got, rather than charge me for new"   type people, who have never seen what happens when high voltage leaks  because of poor or damaged insulation....  it never ends well

Steve, 

2 (maybe dumb) questions, 

what is the highest amps you would install on a 120 outlet (with the right size wire)

What is the right size wire for the highest amp line run to a 120 outlet?

I am thinking about getting a 220 put in but my 2 welders are 120 but I only have a 15 amp breaker to the outlet. 

 

thanks  

[Steve Sells]

Installed wire size  is used to match the rating of the device, Generally if you have a 15 amp ( || ) outlet use 15 ot 12 gage wire and 15 amp breaker,  If you have a 20 amp 120 outlet (  |- )  use 20 amp breaker with 12 or 10 gage wire.   A 30 amp recep (\ / )like for a AC requires a 30 amp breaker and 10 or 8 gage wire DEPENDING ON VOLTAGE DROP

[Charles R. Stevens]

I'm not a residential or comertial electrition like Steve, my background is in automotive. That said it has been my experiance that 110 welders with 15 amp plugs benefit from being used on the next higher circuit, as it is a larger wire size. Especially when one needs to use an extension cord. We acualy have a 30 amp circuit and a 30 amp extension cord wired to a 4 way 15 amp plugs mounted to the weld cart. One extension cord for welder and grinders and minimal voltage drop, and with a welder being used close to its max capacity 

[eseemann]

Steve and Charles, 

thanks for the information, I need to read up on voltage drop but I do know that volts push amps through ohms and long runs can make the volts work harder. This will be either 25 feet from the "fuse box" to a max of about 40 feet to the other side of the house so I hope that should not be too bad. I did get my self the biggest extention cord I could lay hands on, 12/3 25-Foot SJTW Extension Cord. it seems to work well enough. 

Again, thanks for the information. 

 

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Steve is the real expert here, I am only sharing my experiance. Some of my work arounds make him cringe I am sure. 

Resistance created by to small a wire or two long a run will cause a voltage drop and a reduction therefore cause an INCREASE in amperage.   Small wire will also get hot from too much resistance, potentially causing a fire, this is what breakers are designed to prevent. 

voltige is a lot like water pressure, wile amperage is like flow. It's not an exact comparison but it helps get your head around it. Ohms is the resistance to the electron flow.  

correcting Charles again

[eseemann]

Charles, that is the way I was explaining it to my nephew so i am please to see I am not off base. Either way if code wants 10 I will ask for 8 because I have a wife that will be REALLY P.O'd if skimp here and cause a problem down the line!

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

The up side of a 30 amp is your in-laws can plug in their motor home...

well, maybe that's more of a down side. Lol

[eseemann]

DOWNSIDE!!! My wife might get on the "We need an RV" kick again.

[Soupyjones]

What amperage is your welder? Upsizing wire is always an option but not always the solution. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

All to often you see regular 15amp plugs on a mig welder, but the manual advises you use a dedicated 20 amp circuit (the one with one terminal horizontal). So my advice is go with the 20 amp run, and if you plan on needing an extinsian cord go up a size on the run so you don't have exesive drop on your end. Our shop has a welding corner, with both 110 and 220 recepticals. And as their are so many different ends we have several styles of outlets installed. And as mentioned each welder caries an heavy extension cord attached to a break out box for the welder and grinders.

google "house truck" lol

[eseemann]

Soupyjones, 

These are my three big amp hogs

Campbell Hausfeld Model 115-Volt 70-Amp Stick Welder
Harbor Freight 0 Amp-AC, 120 Volt, Flux Cored Welder
Chinese 40 amp max 120/240 volt (non-pilot arc) plasma cutter

 

Charles, 

I was thinking I do need a dedicated circuit because if nothing else my LCD monitor in the kitchen that is on the other side of the fuse box was acting REALLY strange after I blew the breaker using the plasma cutter a few times. The monitor would shut off from time to time but it seems to have corrected it self since I have not used the cutter in a month or so. I know that is not at all scientific but it is the best I got. 

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Might want to invest in a surge protector for the electronics....

Any thing with the 220 option should be wired ip for such and used on 220, it's just more efficient. 

[eseemann]

Charles, 

I am a comptuer security professional with 10 years in helpdesk before that. I do have the surge protector and if I go 220 I would have a good excuse I mean sound reason to get a 220 stick welder and 220 wire welder. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Did you google "house truck"? Tell your wife you will build her one 

[Steve Sells]

10 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

Any thing with the 220 option should be wired ip for such and used on 220, it's just more efficient. 

why? other than the higher voltage winding requiring smaller wire size.

[eseemann]

Do people use extension cords with 220? I figure that might not be much of an issue either way since most of the 220 stick welders I have seen have longer cables for the ground clamp and stinger than my little 110 buzz box. 

I sent Steve a message with the URL to the site where this bit was pulled from in case IFI wants to add it to the reference section. 

Voltage Drop:
Ohm's Law, I=V/R  or V = I*R, says current (amperes) (I) is potential difference (volts) (I) divided by resistance (ohms) (R).
E.g. If you apply 120 volts to a circuit with a resistance of 10 Ohms you will get 12 amps of current.
Most of the resistance in electrical appliances, motors, light bulbs, etc. is in the appliance, but the wire in your house and extension cords also increase resistance.

************NOTE**********
1. In most physics books, "I" is used as the symbol for electric current because in the early scientific days it was known as Electrical Intensity. When the facts about electric current and electrons were discovered the letter C had already been used for Capacitance so the letter I was retained. 
E stands for Electromotive Force.

 

[natenaaron]

I use 220 extension cords all the time.  I use them to hook houseboats up to power before they are hauled to the lake for prep and charging.  Because they are so long mine are very thick  Can't remember the gauge though.  I also use them in the shop, when not hooked to a boat.  When the shop was built the 220 plug in was not well thought out.  First, there is only one, and it is literally right next to the back door.  The extension cords mean I can have the welder positioned anywhere in the shop.  Very handy.  Pricey but convenient.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Steve

I might be wrong, but it is my understanding that typicaly 220 equipment produces the same amount of work at lower wattages, this extends to multi-phase equipment as well. I know this holds true for motors, as to welders and plasma cutters I am acting on two reasonings, first that if this is true of electric motors, it would seem tea able it holds true for the windings in a plasma cutter or welder and second, with the wire size in the windings being the same in a duel voltage welder or plasma cutter, then for the same wattage one would expect the windings to produce less heat. Heat being a symptom of resistance (their is another word used for AC, is that "reluctance") and heat is energy lost from the system, it's a loss of effecency. Not to mention less heat means longer duty cycles. 

For those of you who don't know much about electricity (or who are struggling with imperial mesuments). Watts are a mesument of electrical power used, being amps multiplied by voltage. 10 amps @ 120 volts is not the same as 10 amps @ 220 volts. It gets real confusing with metric motors because the have an Input and output both rated in "watts" 

Nate

You will see that many jurisdiction use "life lines" or heavy 220 volt extension cords (some times 2) for manufactured/mobile/ trailer homes (depending on when your era of reference). 

We infact have a couple with boxes on the end that provide us with multiple options as to plug type. 

[ThomasPowers]

Nope same wattage but as the Volts double the Amps are halved and since the rating for wires is usually based on the Amps you can get more total watts through the same sized wire at the higher Voltage.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Yes, as you have higher "push" with higher voltage, but equipment convertible from 110 (single phase) to 220 (double phase) use the same windings, just reconfigurerd wire size is the same. I stand buy my statement. 

If you multiply 110 volts by 10 amps it's the same wattage as 220volts times 5 amps, this is true, and yes you can push the same wattage threw a smaller set of three wires with 220 as you can with 2 wires with 110, substantially so. But as we are talking about the same set of windings, there for the same wire size it's a mater of effecency, and heat being generated buy the windings is not being used for productive work. 

Know my understanding may be incomplete but our two statements do not contradict one another.   

[Soupyjones]

Now let's add inrush current! Yay inductance!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Been down that rabbit hole, lol. 

[gote]

On 2016-06-13 at 0:29 AM, eseemann said:

Soupyjones, 

These are my three big amp hogs

Campbell Hausfeld Model 115-Volt 70-Amp Stick Welder
Harbor Freight 0 Amp-AC, 120 Volt, Flux Cored Welder
Chinese 40 amp max 120/240 volt (non-pilot arc) plasma cutter

 

Are you telling us that the stick welder draws 70 Amps from the 115V grid?? That is about 8000 watts.

[DSW]

No most welders are listed as output amperage. The little toaster maxes out at 70 amps of output.

 

As far as using 115v vs 230v for power on dual use welders, 230v will always give you better results. #1 you get more output from the circuit on average. My Maxstar 200 wants a 30 amp circuit to get the most out of  115v power. Even then Max output is something like only 150 amps. On a standard 20 amp circuit I can usually get 125 amps output if I'm lucky, but the machine doesn't weld anywhere near as smooth as it will set at 125 amps if I'm on a 230v circuit. To get the full 200 amps out of the machine, I have to be using a 30 amp 230v circuit IIRC.

 

If you have to install a dedicated circuit anyways, 230v will give you the most bang for your buck. Most buzz boxes and plasmas will want a 50 amp 230v circuit. Most 230v migs will want something in the 25-40 amp range as far as circuits. If you put in a 50-60 amp circuit you cover most of your bases. Larger industrial welders that are single phase may want even more power, but most will run at lower output on a 50-60 amp circuit. The exception is if the have the power factor capacitors (PFC's) Then you'll probably need a 70-125 amp feed to the machine. That amount of power will allow full output on most of even the industrial class single phase welders.

[eseemann]

As I understand it stick and wire (I know nothing about TIG) use a low to very low voltage. This is one of the reasons that you need to be 1/16" to strike the arc using a small buzz box with a 1/16" stick. Air has a VERY high resistance (I have seen people talking about gigaohms/M) and from what I have read it takes 30,000 volts to arc 1 CM but I am not an EE so I will leave that to the people that know more that I do. On thing that I don't like about the ole interwebnet is half of the pages I found when trying to fact check my self start with "according to Wikipedia".