Wrought iron style headboard

[Eisenreich]

Greetings,

   I am designing a headboard to be forged in the wrought iron style. I only have a few dozen hours experience forging and, aside from a trivet, this is my first attempt at this style of project. Is anyone willing to share some wisdom about the basics of wrought iron? How do I choose dimensions for the bars that are structurally sound but not excessively heavy? Do collars, bradded tenons, and rivets need to be reinforced with a weld?

   Thanks for any and all advice.

Best regards,

Jonathan

[ThomasPowers]

There are literally hundreds of wrought iron styles; Which one?

Do they need reinforcing with a weld---Yes, No, Maybe depending on information not provided.

Steel is quite strong in small cross sections in tension but will bend when stress is applied sideways. (a typical cheap steel is rated at 36000 psi yield strength)

If you want strength and visual mass yet lightness you need to look into using hollow forms: pipe and tubing.  Which can be forged amazingly well with practice.

 

[Eisenreich]

16 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

There are literally hundreds of wrought iron styles; Which one?

ThomasPowers, thanks for the reply. I only meant to convey that I was forging the headboard out of metal bars without committing to any particular period style or material (iron vs steel).

[EricJergensen]

Consider getting Mark Aspery's 3rd volume: Mastering The Fundamentals Of Traditional Joinery. (Actually, consider getting his whole series.)

[Pancho07]

Following, trying to convince SWMBO to let me make something similar

[ThomasPowers]

Remember any design for a gate is a design for a headboard too....  Have you looked through the COSIRA blacksmithing books with that in mind?  I have a shelf of books that have "Ironwork" in their title (or similar in Spanish, French, German)  most have  designs that could be converted into a bedstead.

[forging-fool]

In general rivets and collars do not need to be reinforced with welds, they are a proven method of joinery in steel and iron for thousands of years. I only use traditional joinery in all my work and have never had a failed joint. I don't know exactly what you mean by wrought iron style, but most customers that say that to me want scroll work, so I'll assume that's what you are talking about. The biggest tip on repeated scroll work is to get jigs made first. You can find plenty of how to advice on scroll jigs. It's amazing how with only three sizes of scroll you can fill huge panels, but if you want it to pop they need to be uniformed, which is what the jigs will do for you.

 

For future reference wrought Iron is a material not a style. It's a common misconstruction but very important to blacksmith history. (Not trying to be preachy here, just informative) 

[Michael Cochran]

Look up railing designs and you find plenty of ideas. You'll find everything from 'easy' to very difficult depending on the style you choose.

[SmoothBore]

Well executed collars rivets and tendons are all effective means of joining what is essentially ornamental iron work.

That being said .....

I would still reinforce critical corners with hidden welds.

 

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[forging-fool]

6 minutes ago, SmoothBore said:

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I would still reinforce critical corners with hidden welds.

 

.

Why do you feel the need to reinforce the welds?

[SmoothBore]

1 hour ago, forging-fool said:

Why do you feel the need to reinforce the welds?

A closer examination of the referenced post will reveal a desire to reinforce " critical corners with hidden welds".

I would do this, because I've lived in the real world for over 60 years, ... where unforeseen influences often come to bear.

The original post by "Jonathan", clearly indicated a beginner's level of expertise, and a desire to create something of enduring quality and utility.

 

The question posed, was ... "Do collars, bradded tenons, and rivets need to be reinforced with a weld?"

In the case of a neophyte hoping to successfully complete a project of this sort, ... the simple answer is YES.

 

Having made no mention of specific Luddite tendencies, it would seem that "Jonathan" was seeking advice from more experienced practitioners.

It is my opinion, that sacrificing strength and utility, on the altar of traditional esthetics, is not the kind of choice that evolved our predecessors to the current state of the art.

 

.

[forging-fool]

3 minutes ago, SmoothBore said:

A closer examination of the referenced post will reveal a desire to reinforce " critical corners with hidden welds".

I would do this, because I've lived in the real world for over 60 years, ... where unforeseen influences often come to bear.

The original post by "Jonathan", clearly indicated a beginner's level of expertise, and a desire to create something of enduring quality and utility.

 

The question posed, was ... "Do collars, bradded tenons, and rivets need to be reinforced with a weld?"

In the case of a neophyte hoping to successfully complete a project of this sort, ... the simple answer is YES.

 

Having made no mention of specific Luddite tendencies, it would seem that "Jonathan" was seeking advice from more experienced practitioners.

It is my opinion, that sacrificing strength and utility, on the altar of traditional esthetics, is not the kind of choice that evolved our predecessors to the current state of the art.

 

.

I too live in the real world. I still have the first thing I made with forged collars, in fact I learnt to make them on that project and they have never budged. The largest protect I made using them was an arch, 12ft tall and 16ft wide, it is held together completely with collars and never moved. None of the collars I've made over my carrier have ever failed. The first ever Iron bridge in England is partly held together with collars. Johnathan may not be experienced, but he can learn. I've learnt most of my skills by putting it into customers work, it's a great motivator to getting it right.

To be honest I've had people tell me traditional forged joinery was not reliable all my carrier but the proof is not just in my work it's in the multitude of fully forged work still doing it's job. Now I'm not telling Johnathan what he should do, if he wants to weld then collar that is his chose and is as lagitimate as not welding. But it's just not true to suggest collars are not safe, the evidence far out ways that view.

[ThomasPowers]

As I recall the Bridge at Ironbridge gorge used mortoises, tenons and wedges not collars and it was cast iron.  When my parents told me they were taking me to England for a vacation and where did I want to go---"Ironbridge Gorge" was at the top of my list---yea Abraham Darby!

Wrought iron is both a material and a subset of things made from steel.  The term for the items derived from the material they used to be made from.  Very much like when you buy "linens" at the department store they are no longer made of linen, (you're lucky to get 100% cotton!") but they were once all made from linen and hence are called linens.

Hence even on a smithing website we often refer to "real" wrought iron to specify the material; other times we expect it's clear through context.

[forging-fool]

You are right, just looked at my photo's from the last time I was there back in 2007, thay are pass-throughs not collars. I stand corrected. But that dose not mean collars and unreliable.

Wrought iron is a martial not a style. That's like saying the 60's was style. It has come to loosley mean traditional Georgian style forge work but it is still a misunderstanding of the term. 

 

[ThomasPowers]

On this side of the pond it's not associated with Georgian; could as easily be Art Nouveau or cheap cold fabbed patio furniture.

As I said with linens: the material they were made from has now been used to refer to the types of items made even if the material is now different.

 What is the group term you use for sheets and towels pillowcases and "bed linens" when they are not made from linen?

[forging-fool]

So Thomas is mild steel and stainless steel styles? 

[John B]

10 hours ago, forging-fool said:

For future reference wrought Iron is a material not a style. It's a common misconstruction but very important to blacksmith history. (Not trying to be preachy here, just informative) 

In the spirit of informative,sadly "Wrought Iron" has now become a generic term for metal worked hot or cold to simulate in appearance what was produced traditionally by blacksmiths specialising in decorative forged work.

[Mark Ling]

we drive by this fencing place sometimes, and outside is a big sign that says " WROUGHT IRON" and I get all excited, and then have tor remind my self that like yall said that it is referring to the look rather that the material. Ive been tempted to go in there and preach to them the difference of wrought iron and mild steel, and how disappointing it is now that people refer to wrought iron as a style instead of the material.

                                                                                                          Littleblacksmith

[arftist]

On 5/28/2016 at 3:01 PM, forging-fool said:

So Thomas is mild steel and stainless steel styles? 

Hi  Mr. Fool.

The term wrought means make by hand.

So...in the past we had cast iron or wrought iron.

 

Now we have wrought (made by hand)

iron (common misnomer for steel and generally 99% iron railings, tables etc.

 

[ThomasPowers]

FF:  If we have a massive centuries long use of them associated with certain products; then Yes they might become words used for styles.

Just like sheet metal is often referred to as "tin" by the folks who work it.  I have a "Tin roof" on my house and shop with no elemental tin involved save as a tramp element.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Smothbore is of the belts and suspenders school, having the bed stead fail during, er... "nocturnal activities" might not make ones partner so happy. 

That said many smiths tack weld under callers, as it just makes assembly so much easer (and no one will see it anyway) I've been known weld hiden tennens as well (have to after upsetting the end into the counter sink you have to grind or file anyway, so why not weld into the countersink?) even the Amish use welders, who do you think builds RV frames?

that said I do a lot of things the hard way, as it requires no electricity to punch, rivit and file.