I have Just been shut down

[blackleafforge]

 

 

 

Has anyone ever been approached by the local council regarding chimney registration? 

 

The local council have asked me to cease operations while they look in to the requirements and have told me I would have to apply to re open and there would be a charge for the application in the region of a few hundred. 

 

I looked at a lot of planning law before I built my forge but this is completely new to me.

[Joel OF]

Sorry to hear that. Can't help with the regs but on a practical side note - to keep you going without a chinney for the time being could you beg/borrow/steal a gas forge off a local farrier?

[JNewman]

Sorry to hear as well.  Another option to keep going would be induction or an Oxy propane torch.   Both are more expensive, induction  as capital and torches as an ongoing expense.  The torches allow you to heat things that would fit in a coal forge but will not fit in a typical gas forge.

You might contact people at Herforshire College to see if they have any information.

[DSW]

Sounds to me like possibly someone complained so they sent out the letter. I've found that often government officials will often just make up rules and then bluff while threatening actions even when they don't have the right to do so. It's an easy way to deal with someone who complains about something. If they are "looking into the matter" that would tell me that they really don't know what laws may or may not apply to you.

I've had inspectors stand there and threaten me with court action to stop doing something that I was clearly with in my rights to do. When I was able to pull out the actual reg and quote it showing I was in the right, they back pedaled and tried to cover their bluff. Don't count on them to actually know the regs and apply them fairly. You need to know what the laws say and be prepared to stand there and defend yourself if you are in the right. What the inspector was there to do was simply bully me into making changes I didn't have to do, so the pest up the street would stop showing up to town meetings and complaining, or writing complaint letters.

If you are a business, I'd be looking at a lawyer myself. They are expensive, but they should know how to dig out the info you want to defend your position. You may find that laws written to cover modern uses have clauses written in that exempt "historic" uses like steam engines and so on the burn coal for modern emissions regulations.

[LawnJockey]

I can't say anything specific to the UK but I have had a fair amount of experience dealing with the little minds that infest regulatory agencies.  First off, stay calm.  It doesn't matter how they got on to you so don't worry about that.  Is your operation commercial or is it noncommercial?  Both have strong points for developing your arguments.

Always kiss their behinds, they get real puffed up about their own self importance and flattery is a tool for you to use.  If you go into to their office be as sweet as can be to the clerks.  Going to their office is always better than having them at your site where they might see other things to complain about.

You need to educate yourself about your rights to appeal but be careful how you do it.  You can ask but do it in a nonthreatening way.

In regards to the shut down order the first thing I would do is try to convince them that it is over broad and try to limit it to the use of the chimney.

Remember, you are smarter than they are but don't let them know you know it.  You have to think creatively and try to make any proposals look like they won.  We are talking about very little minds indeed.

[ThomasPowers]

I've run into code enforcement before myself.  I was restoring a 100 year old house to it's original appearance, basing my work on a 60+ year old photo, Code enforcement told me that the original porch railing did not meet code and that the distance from the porch to the ground mandated a railing.  I asked him what the allowed distance was as I needed to regrade the front yard anyway.  He could not tell me; but he *knew* I was breaking the code.  I told him to come back when he knew it otherwise I'd be happy to explain to a judge the situation.   Years later we moved with the house still with the rebuilt to original front porch.  (New owner tore it all out and installed vinyl everywhere.)

[Alan Evans]

Planners are funny about chimneys. When I was talking to them about building my studio, one of them happened to remark that "the size and construction is fine, the only problem we would have is if you stuck a chimney out it" when I pointed out that I was a blacksmith and would indeed be sticking a chimney out it, they said something along the lines that they used "chimney" as shorthand for converting a shed into a dwelling. Which for some reason is something that they are terrified of. Check with them what the issue actually is...visual, change of use, pollution / smoke free zone etc.

As far as you are concerned Andy, do you already have planning permission for a forge, but they overlooked the need for a chimney? Or is the chimney the "stick" they are using to beat you with over having allowed a change-of-use and are now responding to a niggled neighbour nuisance complaint?

Alan

[Anachronist58]

All great and spot on advice. The County had me tear down my rustic shop in 2003. I chose a "blighted" neighborhood so that I might build my empire from a footing of poverty.

Unfortunately, "the public good" (which is a vital concept) has leveraged the County into something more akin to a Home Owners Association.

Good plan of attack, Lawn Jockey.

Robert Taylor

 

[blackleafforge]

1 hour ago, Alan Evans said:

Planners are funny about chimneys. When I was talking to them about building my studio, one of them happened to remark that "the size and construction is fine, the only problem we would have is if you stuck a chimney out it" when I pointed out that I was a blacksmith and would indeed be sticking a chimney out it, they said something along the lines that they used "chimney" as shorthand for converting a shed into a dwelling. Which for some reason is something that they are terrified of. Check with them what the issue actually is...visual, change of use, pollution / smoke free zone etc.

As far as you are concerned Andy, do you already have planning permission for a forge, but they overlooked the need for a chimney? Or is the chimney the "stick" they are using to beat you with over having allowed a change-of-use and are now responding to a niggled neighbour nuisance complaint?

Alan

Thanks for all the responses, they are appreciated. 

Alan, I was told by the owner of the industrial yard I am sited in that I came under his planning umbrella, B1 and B2 general use I think. But the local government disagree and have told me this afternoon that they also consider it a temporary structure because of its construction and type and I will also need to separately apply for retroactive planning permission, which they were disinclined to offer. They also suggested that because of my location the chimney may have to be over 10 meters high to mitigate damage to local air quality.  I have only been operating for about 2 weeks and was just starting on my first commission.  Anyway no use in dwelling on it but it now looks like I'm going to get closed down permanently. I was just shocked that all this law existed to shut me down, I did everything I could when setting this up with regards to informing the local council and checking the legal requirements but had never come across chimney registration. What are the rest of the smiths in the uk doing? Is everyone vulnerable to this kind of things or are established premises exempt or overlooked?   

[Jackdawg]

Pull the chimney down and just run an open fire?

[John B]

1 hour ago, blackleafforge said:

Thanks for all the responses, they are appreciated. 

Alan, I was told by the owner of the industrial yard I am sited in that I came under his planning umbrella, B1 and B2 general use I think. But the local government disagree and have told me this afternoon that they also consider it a temporary structure because of its construction and type and I will also need to separately apply for retroactive planning permission, which they were disinclined to offer. They also suggested that because of my location the chimney may have to be over 10 meters high to mitigate damage to local air quality.  I have only been operating for about 2 weeks and was just starting on my first commission.  Anyway no use in dwelling on it but it now looks like I'm going to get closed down permanently. I was just shocked that all this law existed to shut me down, I did everything I could when setting this up with regards to informing the local council and checking the legal requirements but had never come across chimney registration. What are the rest of the smiths in the uk doing? Is everyone vulnerable to this kind of things or are established premises exempt or overlooked?   

Hi Alan, Check the owners planning permission,  and the surrounding area's classification.

Quote;     A B1 use must be capable of being undertaken "in any residential area without detriment to the amenity of that area by reason of noise, vibration, smell, fumes, smoke, soot, ash, dust or grit".

If that is the case you are going to have long term problems,

A lot of the new industrial estates also do not accept byproducts from blacksmithing.

Sometimes you even have problems convincing planners it is a rural traditional craft.

It is not an easy path but there are ways whereby you can find somewhere to work from. A private chat may be of use.

  

[Alan Evans]

One of the deals you can explore is personal planning permission. The permission ceases to be as soon as you leave. It is what I have on my studio at my parents place. There is nothing to stop another blacksmith applying for permission before he moves in or buys the place but it is not automatically granted.....if they know you are a one-man-band who will be lighting the fire for around a quarter of the working year doing artwork and not heavy production they can be quite flexible if they wish. Plug the Artist Blacksmith or sculptural activities and always refer to it as a studio. It is quite possibly the heavy industrial connotations that they (and the neighbours) may fear you will develop the business into.

As mentioned by others above if the chimney is the problem, buy or make a gas forge/furnace. I have not needed to light my coke hearth up for twenty odd years...and virtually everything I do is hot worked. Use positive pressure ventilation which reduces any noise transmission through an extractor fan.

 

Alan

[LawnJockey]

I will expand a little on my comments above.  If you can find out exactly what the issues are then you can mitigate them such as switching from coal to gas or only running equipment during certain hours.  I never run any equipment before 8:00am on week days, 9:00am on Saturdays and 10:00am on Sundays as a courtesy to my neighbors and I never have had any complaints.  Make sure you know what others are doing at the facility so you can point out how you are no worse that other allowed uses.  Stress the artistic and traditional crafts aspects of your activity plus any community service activities such as demonstrations and classes you do.  Let them know how you bent over backwards trying to comply with all regulations and from your discussions with the landlord your understanding was that everything you do was allowed and you were in complete compliance.  Then explain how you have invested all your resources into this location and that you are under contract to complete some commissions and if you are forced to cease operations that will result in your financial ruin as you do not have the capital to relocate in the middle of the projects.  Use the term irreparable harm as that is one of two factors courts look at when it comes to an injunction under general common law.  Tell them what steps you can take such as switching to gas and make sure they understand it is a big financial burden for you to do so but you are willing to do what you have to to make the location work.  Remember to tell thenm it will take a few weeks to make the changes, always bargan for time at every step  

If you are still not getting anywhere ask about the appeal process and after that has been explained ask about staying the stop work order pending your appeal since the order under appeal causes irrepairable harm.  If you have brown nosed enough they will have some compassion for the tight spot you are in.  Milk the system for time and even if you lose the appeal request time to relocate again citing the irrepairable harm that will result from a shutdown.

[blackleafforge]

Thanks. I have tried stressing the whole traditional craft thing and my willingness to work with them and modify my work practice but they seem very uninterested. It all just seems so counter intuitive and obstructive. The place I looked at before building my current workshop was a 300 year old forge in the countryside but the local planners would still not accept it could be used as a forge without an expensive and lengthly consultation because it had been vacant for 50 years! I would love to stay but I can't risk it still not being allowed to work even after I get further in to debt trying to keep them happy by changing my equipment or modifying my shop. I get the feeling they don't want to see me succeed and will be obstructive to the end. 

On a related note does anyone in the south west know of a vacant forge or similar? 

[John B]

The 300 year old forge in question is about to be reopened as a forge in the near future, extensive changes being made to suit the new incumbent and bring it into a commercially viable situation rather than a tourist attraction. 

[Bud in PA]

This is why I live in the country. Very few neighbors = less complaints. Public servants tend not to get out of their office and go look for trouble.

[ron]

Have a look at blueprints BP 1048 SIDE DRAFT CHIMMNEY by Uri Hofi  post 23 aug 2011. Have had good reports about this system.It has been used on historic buildings that can not have  anything on the roof. Also is quick and easy to install and dismantal and repair hole when not in use as a forge. Hope this will be of help.Ron.

[Kozzy]

On May 27, 2016 at 5:43 AM, LawnJockey said:

I can't say anything specific to the UK but I have had a fair amount of experience dealing with the little minds that infest regulatory agencies.  First off, stay calm.  It doesn't matter how they got on to you so don't worry about that.  Is your operation commercial or is it noncommercial?  Both have strong points for developing your arguments.

Always kiss their behinds, they get real puffed up about their own self importance and flattery is a tool for you to use.  If you go into to their office be as sweet as can be to the clerks.  Going to their office is always better than having them at your site where they might see other things to complain about.

You need to educate yourself about your rights to appeal but be careful how you do it.  You can ask but do it in a nonthreatening way.

In regards to the shut down order the first thing I would do is try to convince them that it is over broad and try to limit it to the use of the chimney.

Remember, you are smarter than they are but don't let them know you know it.  You have to think creatively and try to make any proposals look like they won.  We are talking about very little minds indeed.

I would add that people are flattered when you ask them for help--people naturally like to help.  One back door to the keister-smooching mentioned is often to seek their advice and help in a resolution:  "you're the expert on this--can you give me advice or ideas on XXXXXX?  How would you approach it?" often gets you a long way.  If the top brass are not receptive, sometimes their underlings are and at times,  they can pave the path to the brass being less adversarial too.

Turning it into a battle NEVER works.  All sides dig their heels in and the side with the power tends to win.

There was a recent local one where a guy built an unpermitted garage on the city right of way (not officially abandoned but the city was considering abandoning the ROW).  The guy decided to battle the "code nazis" and wage a campaign of brutal complaining in the letters to the editor section of the newspaper rather than working with the city to resolve the issue.  He dismantled it a month ago rather than face the city doing it for him and sending him the bill.