Forge build

[Mbmul175]

I'm busy filing the edges smooth on the reducer and making sure the 2 nipples joinbwithout a gap . 

I went to 5 different stores and searched the entire day, that's the best I could do , well it was only about 5 dollars, so not too expensive of a mistake 

Thanksagain

Michael.

[Frosty]

You couldn't find a 6" nipple? So buy a longer nipple and saw it off.

Even though I can buy a 3/4"x1" T fitting at any plumbing supply within driving distance, department and big box stores don't count I'm coming to realize that isn't true everywhere even though those fittings are darned necessary to plumb a building.

Lose the bell reducer and use the thread protector for the nozzle.

If all you can find is a 3/4" T use a 0.030" mig tip for the gas jet, it'll tune just like the other.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Mbmul175]

I couldn't find any reducing t's , will it work if I just take a 1" pipe and weld a 3/4" pipe of apropreate length into the side ? Then add the mig tip in the top as it would be in the T ? They only had those small nipples in various sizes but nothing longer ...

Thanks, 

Michael.

I assume that as long as the inside is the same that it won't make much of a difference. But you're the expert.

[ianinsa]

44 minutes ago, Mbmul175 said:

I couldn't find any reducing t's ,

Thanks, 

Michael

Try plumblink

[Mbmul175]

Will do, thanks.

 

[Frosty]

If you ask for a "reducing T" you wont find one, you MUST use the correct name. It's a 3/4" x 1" or the metric equivalent "T".

Don't sweat it, learning how to ask folk at the counter the right things and interpreting their answers is a learned skill. Whatever you do NEVER ask a guy at the plumbing or HVAC supply counter  questions about making a forge burner! They're virtually ALL clueless and will only confuse you in a convincing sounding way.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mbmul175]

I walked through all the shelves, j even drew a picture. Nothing 

 

[Latticino]

Try this:  Ferguson reducing TEE.  This is a very standard plumbing item, common for natural gas and hydronic piping.  Any decent plumbing supply shop should have them.

 

[Anachronist58]

Great link, Latticino, and might I suggest to Seekers that ordering from an online source these days might be a FIRST option, rather than a last resort.

I have read here of a lot of fruitless trudging in search of what used to be common items.

Robert Taylor

[Frosty]

16 hours ago, Latticino said:

Try this:  Ferguson reducing TEE.  This is a very standard plumbing item, common for natural gas and hydronic piping.  Any decent plumbing supply shop should have them.

 

They Do call it a reducing TEE. Wrong again, ARGHHH. Nobody around here calls them anything but by their dimensions and everybody carries the things.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mbmul175]

But still, can't I just weld a 3/4" pipe into a 1" pipe and then add the mig tips and stuff ?

Thanks 

Michael

[Latticino]

Clearly you can do anything that you want, but the configuration will be subtly different from the one that Frosty has designed and tested.  Depending on how good a pipe fitter you are, your weld joint connection may be cleaner than the equivalent fitting, or (like mine would be) not perpendicular in all axis and leaving a lot of weld slag on the joint interior to cause unusual flow patterns.  One of the key positive characteristics of the Frosty TEE burner is that it can be manufactured from standard plumbing and welding machine parts, with minimal specialty metalworking equipment, jigs and critical measurements.  Shifting to a welded assembly runs counter to that design elegance.

If you vary the design for custom manufacture, you might as well go for building a Mikey, Zoeller or Mini Mongo style burner.  Personally if I wanted to go all out and do a custom welded fabricated NA burner assembly, I'd probably try to copy a Ransome style system with a true ventauri mixing and induction chamber.

We are constantly seeing posts from folks who want to "improve" the Frosty Tee design and then want direction on how to tune their variant successfully.  If you make changes to the design it will be significantly more difficult for folks (Frosty most likely) to give you any direction.

[Frosty]

How good are your shop skills Michael? I could do that, no problem but I know how to align the pipes, mess up the tube's alignment and it's scrap. If you try, weld on the outside NOT the inside and leave the 3/4" tube slightly deep so it forms a bit of a slope. Sure it's going to be another step instead of a smooth transition but it won't be quite as abrupt. If you had a lathe you could turn the inside into a smooth bell. Of course if you had acccess to and knew how to use a lathe you wouldn't be asking these questions.

I'd buy the part even if I had to order it online. I could use the time I saved: mowing lawns, weeding yards, sweeping walks, picking up dog poop, etc. and buy some top notch tools or save for equipment. What's your time worth, how many chores or odd jobs do you have to do to earn $10-15?

If I were going to go to that much work I'd build a Porter burner.

Let us know how it works.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mbmul175]

Hi have full access to a 6 foot lathe and a milling machine, no formal training but I can make something off a plan .

I cant buy online. I have no street address cause I live on a farm, so I can't register for online shops.

Are there any plans that would be better suited for being made on a lathe that you might suggest ? 

I have a full time job, blacksmithing is my weekend thing so far 

Thanks,

Michael.

[Mbmul175]

Frosty, i tested my monstrosity of a burner, it seemed to be working fine the flame looks good to me, what do you think ?

[Frosty]

How does it work in the forge? I don't use burners outside a forge so I'm not the best judge. Put it in the forge and see how hot the forge gets, a HOT forge is the goal.

Do you recall everything I wrote about how to use a floor flange, how measure center, how to drill, switch bit and tap the hole, then install the brass fitting, drill and tap that all without moving the T. on the drill press table? All that is to align the mig tip jet as closely with the burner tube as possible.

Instead, screw the Tee on THE pipe nipple you are going to use for the burner tube. Pilot drill the Tee, drill the hole, change the drill bit for the tap, hand turn the chuck and tap the hole. Install the brass fitting, drill it, change the bit for the tap and tap it.

You can't align the jet in the burner any better than that. UNLESS you have more joints in the system than necessary. Each fitting, connection, screw, bolt, whatever, EVERYTHING increases the error in the whole. Commercially made linear and jet ejector type induction devices are almost all ONE PIECE. ONE thing and one thing only screws in, the jet. Choke plates aren't involved in the direct function of the burner, you can use a piece of tape or aluminum foil for a choke.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Mbmul175]

It worked okay in a cinder block forge, the side inside was 9"x9" x4.5", it lost a lot of heat tho .

I learned from the guy that refills our gas that the "oxy-acetalene" torch we use is actually fueld by oxygen and propane.  19.7 liter tanks of oxygen and propane cost us R700 for the 2, and you get a lot of usage out of it like that, and much hotter heat . ( R700 is about 55$US. ) and building a burner for that will be easy cause the air intake and choke are no longer relevant . what do you think ?

Thanks for all your help,

Michael.

[Frosty]

Michael: I've been reading your posts and questions since you joined and what I think is. Take classes, you're demonstrating a lack of basic knowledge that will endanger you and your Father's shop.

As to your current post. NO it did NOT work well in a CINDER BLOCK forge. Concrete is as inappropriate for building a gas forge as wood, it's just a LOT more dangerous.

RED FLAG indicator #2 in THIS post. You didn't know the shop torch is oxy. PROPANE rather than oxy. ACETYLENE!!!

RED FLAG  #3. You want to BUILD a burner for an oxy fuel torch!!  Even just using an oxy fuel torch in THAT forge will have you picking HOT concrete out of your teeth and doctors picking it out of your hide within a few minutes of lighting up.

RED FLAG  #4 Using an oxy fuel burner in ANY forge will be uselessly hot, it'll melt the surface of the stock before the interior breaks red. Of course unless you want to spend stupid HUGE $ on refractories the forge will melt in no time.     

Take some classes, even if you have to pack a bag and hitch a ride to a city with a college, get a job and pay your own way through. You are proposing things NO kid who passed the book portion in metal shop 1 would and believe me there were a lot of knuckleheads made it to one of the Occupational shop classes, still. some of these ideas are as smart as washing your hands with gasoline before BBQing a steak.

  Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Item #5, Frosty thinks enugh of you and your potential to spend time trying to help you, no mater how much his truth may hurt.  

I was raised by a mechanic, by the time I got out of the army I was pretty good at it, but I went to trade school to get better, their is a big deference between a technician who can do diagnostics and a parts changer. 

Min your case I see a bright kid (yea, I'm old) who grew up around the farm and dad's shop. This gives you a huge leg up, but you ether need to slow down and listen to the old farts and stop trying to improve on something you don't fully understand ( the image at spading concreat and and a mega oxy/propaine burner makes me cringe) or go to the university and get an engineering degree. In detween is where you probably need to be. Jerry Frost(y) and Mike have posted some I depth descusions on gas forges and burners in particular, enugh to give you a jumping off point to build on their work, but you need to build a forge and burner from one of their tried and proven plans. Then you can play with it, one change at a time to "improve" on it. But untile you do just that your asking for trouble. I know, I know, I'm a "why" guy to. You want to know why it works, and you have ideas....

belive me so are they, that's why they know what they are telling you is right. 

 

[Mbmul175]

Thanks for all the advice, 

I would love to take classes but there arent any that we could find that i would be able to do, due to politics. I'd rather ask about these things than going out and making stuff and burning my face off. I know I'm not supposed to use concrete, I just wanted to see how the burner worked with the correct volume needed, even tho the concrete ate my heat and didn't really give any helpful results.

But I am going to go study next year, so I'll have 3 years to get my affairs in order, make sure everything is cosure in my shop. 

Thanks again for all your help and advice,

Michael.

[Frosty]

Don't go away Michael. I came across a little more harsh than I should've but I wanted to make an impression. Some of the things you propose are disasters in the making and YOU aren't the only one seeing these questions and answers. Who knows what kid out there reads a wild hare idea like those and thinks "I can do that!" You see guys asking why their forge won't get hot enough or showing off pictures of the cast liner they just made using plaster of Paris or some off the internet mix of sand clay and Portland Cement.

All the time folk read something and thing it sounds like a good idea but they don't know enough to know they're begging for a catastrophe up to: injuries, losing their homes maybe even lives. Say your Mom and little sister are napping upstairs when some idiot Youtube burner design lights the first floor on fire when the propane hose burns off?

I'm not laying blame on you for what might happen but I think about it often. I avoid talking about certain burner fuels for a good reason, even dignifying them with arguing against the use is too much public attention. Somebody out there without the sense to pour water out of a boot if the instructions were written on the bottom would convince themself they were smart enough to make it work.

I don't want somebody's home, hide or Mom and little sister on my conscience. I'm not afraid to hurt someone's feelings telling them an idea is stupid or to find a different hobby. I'd rather be disliked than have bad dreams. So if I come across too harsh sometimes that's where the thread and my imagination is taking me.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mbmul175]

Thanks again frosty.

You didn come across too harsh, I understand why you said what you said, and I'll respect that.

That's the thing that gets me mad tho, all the YouTubers and guys on pintrest saying they have the best tips for forge building, even tho 98% of them work, the other 2% are bombs. I don't care if I have to sit for a week with callipers and a file in order to make something as it needs to be. I tend to fix stuff till they break, so a plan that you have to follow to the finest detail is what i like to work with.  

An I'm not going away, I won't quit smithing just because I have trouble with my forge. I will still spend my holidays and weekends fine tuning everything, making sure its perfect for when I start doing it full time.

Thanks,

Michael.

 

[Mbmul175]

I finally got a real forge working, its the same franken-T-burner as before, i got the body at an auction for 20USD, it has some opaque glass like refractory that is in direct contact eith the flames, aroun that there is an 2 inch layer if asbestos (not sure how healthy it would be to work with ), and then fire bricks. It works amazingly well, ive only run it for 10 minutes so far, but it gets really hot.  

The ohiti was taken right after lighting it for the first time,  later the entire inside was glowing red 

[Frosty]

Is any of the asbestos open to the air, in or outside the forge? If it's enclosed then don't mess with it at all, leave it lay it's safer right where it's at. If on the other hand it is exposed you might want to replace or encapsulate it.

I only have enough haz mat training to know when to call an expert but asbestos isn't a short term exposure hazard. I'd remove small quantities wearing a dust mask and wetting it down good with water then putting it in plastic bags. Take a cool shower before taking a hot shower to minimize opening pores to allow particle infiltration to your skin. Wash those clothes separately.

The above is basic haz mat handling PROVIDED it can safely be wetted with water. Do not use water on unknown materials B-A-D things can happen!

However do NOT take what I've just written as a how to for disposal of asbestos. Contact your local authorities and be sure.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mbmul175]

I believe it to be asbestos, not 100% sure though, none of it is exposed so its all good.