Burners 101

[bluesman7]

4 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Hey, blues:

First, that is a strong flame; not a weak one. Many guys would use such a flame in a forge, and never look back, but it needs work. Go back three or four pages and you will find a similar flame, that just needed a little adjustment in the burner to run properly.

 

 

That's page 19 for anyone else who is following this.

[bluesman7]

Choke wide open.

 

Choke adjusted to what I perceive  as neutral.

Sorry about the focus.

[Mikey98118]

The last photo is getting close; try shortening the amount of overhang on the flame nozzle.

[bluesman7]

I can easily shorten it, but there may be a design issue with the nozzle. The nozzle is a straight 1-3/8" bore. The outside end of the 3/4" burner tube is built up to this same 1-3/8" size. This is what fits my forge.

Do I understand correctly that your normal stepped nozzle for a 3/4" burner is made from 1" pipe"? 

I can make another burner to use a different size nozzle, but I would like to get the present  burner running as good as possible  to use in my existing forge. 

I lengthened the overhang after the choke mod because I thought the flame looked better.  Can you describe what I'm looking for as I shorten it, or should I just shorten it by 1/8" and get another picture? The overhang is 1-13/16" in that photo. Is it best to use the choke to get a neutral flame while tuning the nozzle?

Thanks again for the help.

[Mikey98118]

The stepped nozzle on a 3/4" Mikey burner is made from 1-1/4" schedule #40 stainless steel pipe, which fits easily enough into the 1" schedule #40 black pipe, which is used as a spacer ring between it and the 3/4" schedule #40 black pipe mixing tube. Stainless steel pipe is thicker and much cheaper than the nearest available stainless steel tubing, and makes an easier fit to the other parts.

I would suggest you just stick this burner into your forge as is, rather than trying to cut the nozzle shorter; it isn't worth further effort to cut such a short term temporary part. It is temporary because flame nozzles in heating equipment must be considered consumables, and short term because it is mild steel, which will oxidize away quite rapidly in a forge.

Stainless steel pipe can be ordered cut to size from onlinmetals.com, which is where and how I buy mine these days, since Seattle is no longer the steel center it was forty years ago. Simply down load a free pirated copy of Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns. Then you can pick up this kind of information the easy way; there is a lot more things you need to know in it, then just how to build Mikey burners.

[bluesman7]

45 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

The stepped nozzle on a 3/4" Mikey burner is made from 1-1/4" schedule #40 stainless steel pipe, which fits easily enough into the 1" schedule #40 black pipe, which is used as a spacer ring between it and the 3/4" schedule #40 black pipe mixing tube. Stainless steel pipe is thicker and much cheaper than the nearest available stainless steel tubing, and makes an easier fit to the other parts.

This is effectively the same dimensionally as what I have. That is good news!

I would suggest you just stick this burner into your forge as is, rather than trying to cut the nozzle shorter; it isn't worth further effort to cut such a short term temporary part. It is temporary because flame nozzles in heating equipment must be considered consumables, and short term because it is mild steel, which will oxidize away quite rapidly in a forge.

I don't have to cut the nozzle shorter, I can just slide it back onto the burner. The overhang when installed in the forge is adjustable also just by how far I slide the burner into the fixed nozzle. 

Stainless steel pipe can be ordered cut to size from onlinmetals.com, which is where and how I buy mine these days, since Seattle is no longer the steel center it was forty years ago. Simply down load a free pirated copy of Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns. Then you can pick up this kind of information the easy way; there is a lot more things you need to know in it, then just how to build Mikey burners.

Moving the choke to the other side did improve the flame significantly. I'll play around with the nozzle overhang a bit before putting the burner back into the forge. Thank you!

[Frosty]

Iamjoe: I'm not sure what to say, the ratios you used should be flowing long yellow flames. That's burning a little rich you have that right but it's burning a whole lot better than I'd expect. 

I can't see how you have your jet (mig tip) mounted can you move it back, farther from the mixing tube? The farther from the mixing tube the jet is the more combustion air it will induce.

You can trim the mig tip if you can't move it back, use a torch tip cleaning file to debur the orifice after you trim it. Burs in the jet really mess up the stream of propane and inhibit things. Trim in small increments say 1/16" at a time.

If moving or trimming the jet back doesn't lean the flame out enough try a 0.030" mig contact tip. This is a big adjustment.

Please take still pics, we can tell as much or more than we can from video. 

 

Vainend: I've never been happy using a cross. Once I had that head slapping moment and came up with an easy way to accurately drill and tap a "T" I stopped even thinking about using cross fittings. However a person could use the same floor flange jig to drill out the air ports in a Cross to the same ID as a 3/4" x 1" T. It might be worth the effort but I'll let someone else pursue that avenue. I'll be more than happy to help trouble shoot the experiments but I've got other things going.

Have you seen the NARB Lives thread? Those are what I'm paying with right now along with getting a home built 2" x 72" belt grinder working and accessorized properly. The multi outlet type burner is proving to be very stable, in fact yesterday, Saturday the 24th. I participated in a local event demoing blacksmithing. There was an often stiff breeze from different directions all day and the NARB didn't flicker once.

The problem with the NARB in my opinion is it's very broad flame, the forge heats evenly through the entire chamber and I like having a hot spot for a number of operations.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Well, no single burner, or forge, is best for all purposes. Choice is good.

[Frosty]

Good thought Mike, so all those old gas forges are just waiting for the right job to leap to the rescue. Cool, I thought they were mostly just trip hazards I needed to build a bench they could hide under.

BOY am I relieved! 

Frosty The Lucky.

[iamjoe]

Frosty,

I've made some changes. I went with a shorter burner tube. I tried 4" then 3" with the .035 tip. The 3" seemed better with that setup but still not a good flame.

Then I went to a .023 tip still with the 3" tube. I will attach pictures of that flame along wit pics of my jet tube assembly and mounting style.

 

[Frosty]

That's not a bad looking flame Joe. Can I call you Joe? A LITTLE rich but not bad at all but I LIKE my burners to run a LITTLE rich it makes a lot of things much easier. You just need good ventilation.

Do you have a pic looking straight in the intake port so we can get a look at the jet position? Without being able to see what you have the following is speculation but maybe worth a thought.

I can see a couple ways to move the jet position back if it's practical behind the intake ports is probably beyond the point of no returns. The first method I can see is change the brass fittings you're using to make up to the contact tip, if you can lose one of the final fittings between the gas pipe and the mig tip it'll move the jet back significantly. If that isn't possible a longer pipe nipple than you're using for the gas feel sleeve will allow a lot more adjustment range.

Don't change so many things at the same time or you'll never really know what did what.

How does it work in a forge?

Frosty The Lucky.

[iamjoe]

Frosty,

Call me Joe. 

I do have the ability to move the tip. I sanded the fittings to move in and out freely. Sadly the schedule 80 1/8" pipe nipple does not exist in my area; and I can't for the life of me drill a straight hole with a hand drill. So I have to make do.

Hadn't planned to put it in a forge. I was going to try and use like a torch. Possible an edge quench or working with something small on a vice. I know, not the most efficient but I can't afford a torch setup right now. 

Picture is a little off center.

 

[Frosty]

Thanks Joe. Pull the jet back till the end is about where the yellow mark is now and see what that does. Being off center messes up the stream of propane and induction but having 3 set screws should let you aim it straight down the bore. This adjustment takes really REALLY small turns of the set screws. Just apply enough loosening force to the screw at the widest gap till it  moves at ALL. Then just put a little tightening force on the other 2. Check and repeat as needed.

It's like the final centering adjustment of a 4 jaw lathe chuck, half a turn on the wrench and it was screwed up, start over. It took me forever to learn to do that.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

8 hours ago, Frosty said:

Good thought Mike, so all those old gas forges are just waiting for the right job to leap to the rescue. Cool, I thought they were mostly just trip hazards I needed to build a bench they could hide under.

BOY am I relieved! 

Frosty The Lucky.

How did we get from there's no such thing as the perfect burner, or forge, to there's no such thing as a bad burner, or of forge

[Frosty]

9 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

How did we get from there's no such thing as the perfect burner, or forge, to there's no such thing as a bad burner, or of forge

Brother I don't know how you get most places. I do have to say you're willingness to share the interesting bits of some of those places is pretty darned cool. Just because a forge was bad in it's youth doesn't mean it's worthless does it? I mean really, I think a couple are already serving life sentences I don't want to crush the dream of them finding useful employment and maybe moving out. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

[ppancho]

Thanks for the info Mikey. Diky i bluesman7. Yes, English is my lack and I have a problem with technical problems - I have a graduate school of engineering and I have played in a dilin from a child.

 

[iamjoe]

Frosty,

Thanks for the input. It may be a couple of days before I can get back to it. I will update when I do.

[Mikey98118]

So, you were serious about some of these old forge designs being reworked into something worthwhile? Come to think of it, that is a reasonable possibility. What is wrong with most of them is too many minus factors; a change of burners would probably turn most of them around. Better refractories would be a big help too...

[Mikey98118]

 

Once again, this burner brings up the growing problem of poor quality threaded pipe fittings; I don't know where the answer lies, but I think we need to start looking for one.

[Frosty]

40 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

So, you were serious about some of these old forge designs being reworked into something worthwhile? Come to think of it, that is a reasonable possibility. What is wrong with most of them is too many minus factors; a change of burners would probably turn most of them around. Better refractories would be a big help too...

Yes, my current shop forge is WAY too large and it's fragile, I've only ever lit all four burners a couple times. First to test it, in use only when my shop was crowded with guys making the 18" x 18" x 6" chamber roomy enough a bunch of beginners could work in the fire without hopelessly tangling their work. I've needed that much fire maybe twice in it's 15+ years.

The other serious trip hazard is my first T burner forge and it's better than 21. It's double lined, 1" 8lb. Kaowool and 3/4" Pyramid Super, air set plastic refractory. It's ID is about 6.5" dia. X 12" and was heated by my first really successful 1" T. It was perfectly functional for a cylindrical forge and the Pyramid Super is an obsolete(sigh) phosphate bonded, high phosphate refractory with designed for a ammonia atmosphere at 4,200f working temp. With both ends wide open I had trouble turning that big gun burner down enough to keep from melting projects, especially thin sections.

The old pipe forge isn't a bad forge it's just far from good. The shell is 10.5" Dia, x 5/16" wall structural casing. The insulation is too thin by half and the burner is 2x what should be in it. On the good side the flame face is literally bullet proof, I did so much welding in it I didn't have to flux welds just roll them on the floor once it was hot. The spilled flux was in a puddle about 1.5" wide I don't know how deep that ran front to back. You could just dip some up like it was honey and drizzle it on the weld joint. I made a rake and little scoop to clean it our when it started getting in the way but flux had zero effect on the refractory.

The burner was like I say hard to turn down so it didn't just melt projects. That was a fun feature though, folk at the time were living with the myth you couldn't weld in a gasser, of course theirs were running so lean to get heat the stock scaled hopelessly before they got to welding heat. At a couple friendly hammer ins if whoever was taking it for a test drive got to talking and not watching his steel I'd casually reach around and turn up the psi to about  6 - 7lbs. At 6lbs. that burner would melt cold 1/2" sq. stock in about 30 seconds. On a couple occasions I couldn't have scripted it better. The fellow is expounding on how BS it is any gas forge will weld and anybody making the claim was a fraud. I'm standing next to the fellow but I'm not a bad guy, I'm not trying to sell forges I'm just a misguided newby who doesn't know any better. I interrupt him asking if he's watching his steel. He actually Bahed and just reached around almost behind him and drew it from the forge without looking. Probably 3" was a boiling puddle on the forge floor and what was still attached hit the open air in a spray of sizzling hissing sparks. The spray of sparks burned a number of us standing too close.

Like I say, I don't use that old forge, it's not insulated well enough to use a 3/4" T and a 1" T is just too much so it sits gathering dust. Far from perfect but it still works. Oh and it's heavy, really HEAVY.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Mikey98118]

Probably, a new thread could be used to invite members who want help in reworking old forges into something new? I foresee a LOT of interest, once word spreads. There would have to be a couple of rules though: No salty comments on our part about what a mess the forge is to start with. No excuses for inaction on their part. What do you think; want to go first? If you like the idea, just start the thread; I don't want a third Mikey thread on this forum.

BTW, loved the little girl ventriloquist; she is amazing!

I like super lite easily portable forges; those are my druthers. I like forges with thin steel shells, 'cause they are lite. But heavy forges can be a lot more stable in the shop. Heavier forge shells can "take a licking and keep on ticking."

[Frosty]

I don't know Mike, I don't really think about rebuilding or redesigning forges. The shop forge got remade 4 times I think but that's one reason it's getting retired it just isn't very durable. Putting that tank of a pipe forge of mine back in action would just be a matter of clamping the burner back in and finding some youngster to lift it up on a stand. 

Heck, when I build a pipe forge they make yours look like bank vaults and they're plenty strong. I like SS stove pipe shells, everything is off the shelf. Wall hangers make perfect legs, bushing reducers make perfect ends and you don't need a tool list longer than drill, tin snips and pop rivets or sheet metal screws. 

It's not that folk don't rebuild forges, liners are wear items after all I just don't know how much interest there'll be. Okay, so it's maybe worth taking a shot, I've never built a forge I didn't think of upgrades or changes I'd like better, that's why I have so many dust catchers. 

What's the format? We've been talking about building the things for years and rebuilding one isn't much different so there isn't a lot of original material to talk about. Make an advice column out of it? Call it, "Dear Gasser? NO, NOT "Dear Gassy!"

Awe, what the heck, I'll start a poll and see what the reaction is. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[aessinus]

19 hours ago, Frosty said:

 On the good side the flame face is literally bullet proof, I did so much welding in it I didn't have to flux welds just roll them on the floor once it was hot. The spilled flux was in a puddle about 1.5" wide I don't know how deep that ran front to back. You could just dip some up like it was honey and drizzle it on the weld joint. I made a rake and little scoop to clean it our when it started getting in the way but flux had zero effect on the refractory.

I want (need) to use that material for my re-line.  I'm a klutz.  Also, since 2" of wool is the recommendation, why not 3"? 

Voted, btw.  Should I move the question over there?

Edited June 27, 2017 by aessinus
afterthought

[Frosty]

Pyramid got bought out by Green then Green got bought and I haven't found a source for an equivalent of the Pyramid Super.

The easily sourced good enough refractory that's becoming popular currently is Kast-O-Lite 30. It's not as bullet proof but being a high alumina ceramic it isn't significantly effected by flux erosion. It's a water set castable so it works and cures like concrete. It contains evacuated silica spheres or beads that not only lighten the weight, it provides a degree of insulation and being spheres they permit the refractory to expand and contract with thermal cycles without cracking. KastOLite-30 is rated at a max working temp of 3,000f. I like it, it's tough, hard and reasonably easy to work with. Until something better comes along it's my preference and recommendation. Wayne Coe sells small quantities at a very reasonable price. Our club buys and divides 50lb. bags for around $100. ea.

Another little trick we're playing with is adding "zirconium silicate" flour to the flame face by just mixing it into the Kastolite and laying it as a thin finish coat on the inside of the forge. This is as an alternative to buying "kiln wash" products like ITC-100 and so far it appears to work well. However there are commercial products like Plistex and Metricote (spelling?) that are economical effective alternative for ITC products. Also carried by Wayne.

You can make the backer as thick as you like in your forge but I've found 2" to be adequate. I can run my forge at mid yellow temps for a few hours and still touch the outside, not lay my hand on it and leave it, about fresh cup of coffee hot+.  putting 3" backing (insulating) layer can't hurt if you have enough interior volume to serve your purposes. You need to remember why you have the forge, heck any tool, and that's to use it. Efficiency on one hand can interfere with usefulness on the other.

If your forge can afford to lose another 2" of width height and length it's a why not?

Right now we should be using the "Forges 101" thread to discuss forges, this is the burner thread. I want to see if Gasser Garage generates enough interest or we're just spreading the topic. Finding your questions as first post when I opened my comp this morning makes me think Gasser Garage might take off. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Mikey98118]

Frosty,

Gasser Garage will either take off or not, and will therefor become permanent or not.

There is bound to be some cross over between burner and forge subjects, becuase the parts are so intertwined.

5 hours ago, aessinus said:

I want (need) to use that material for my re-line.  I'm a klutz.  Also, since 2" of wool is the recommendation, why not 3"

It depends on the burner size. And how close the the insulation, which gets quite hot, is allowed to come to the burner's mixing tube. Your burner has a continual feed of cold gas running throw it, helping to keep the hot forge it's placed in, from over heating it; just something to keep in mind...