Worshipdrummer Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 How do I keep from washing my grind lines out after I harden and heat treat? In other words, when I clean up the discoloration from quenching and then heat treating I use my sander to clean the knife up but I keep washing my grind lines away. Plunge line still looks good but the rest are washed out (faded) to the point they do not look good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Picture of what you are getting would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Thanks for the reply but never mind. I found a few ideas while researching the problem today. Would any moderator please delete this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Please tell us about the ideas you found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 The idea I am going to try first is to grind the bevels after I harden and heat treat. I really did not know that was an option until I researched it. There were also some hybrid ideas such as grind some but not all before heat treat and hardening then there were suggestions about cleaning the blade in hot vinegar but that would not help my issue because the blades will still require sanding to remove the other stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 OUCH; you have to keep the bevels cool to grind after heat treat and it takes a lot more time and abrasives. With practice you should be able to go over your original grind lines without marring them and do as little buffing as possible to preserver them afterwards---which means bringing your grinds up through quite fine grades either by machine or by hand work with properly shaped holders for the abrasives (big box of various sized dowel sections for doing fullers for example) With practice the amount of hand work goes down and the amount of doing it on the belt grinder goes up! So; how many hundreds of hours have you spent grinding? How many dozens of blades? Or are you complaining you can't play Liszt properly on the piano after a week of practice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 Ok, first there was no complaining I only asked a simple question. Second, I found an answer and was satisfied therefore I asked for the topic to be deleted. Third, I was asked to share what I found, so I did. I really do like this forum and I respect that there is a lot of experience here so I hope as experienced craftsman you guys can take some of the criticism you seem very happy to dish out. You guys have a ton of knowledge and many times when someone asks you to share a small piece of that knowledge you fire off with an insult or counterproductive comment. Thomas this is not directed at you I have noticed this very, very often when reading through older posts. Many of you identify yourself as a curmudgeon and you seem to act to reinforce the title. Do you not realize that Blacksmithing as a craft will die if those of you with experience and knowledge will not pass it on to those who are interested. I truly get that explaining the same question over and over again can get taxing but there are civil ways to get your ideas across without insulting someone because they are a newbie and available for you to pick on. I sincerely intend this to be a simple criticism and not an insult to the members of the forum I hope you can accept it as such. So ends the rant... In answering your question Thomas, I am not sure how many hours I have spent grinding blades by hand with a file or on a belt sander I do not keep track because I enjoy it. Maybe more than 100 but less than 500. I am not happy with my results because I am messing up my grind lines while cleaning and polishing the blade. That was the reason for my original question, I want to get better but I do not know what I do not know. I do appreciate your initial response though, if I understand it correctly your advise is to clean up the blade after hardening and heat treat by sanding with increasing finer grits trying to match my original grind line closely as possible. I hope I got that correct. When I switch from matching the bevel angle to clean that up, to trying to clean the part of the blade that is still flat I have noticed that is where I tend to get into trouble with my grind lines. Any advise for that part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 How are you grinding? Belt grinder with a platen, Belt grinder freehand on a contact wheel? Disk grinder ? Special jigs? How are you holding the blade? Bracing your body? I was taught freehanding and learning to hold a blade in the same brace position was part of it. For flat grinds a disk grinder might help maintain the exact angle previously done. Part of the blade that is still flat: do you mean the ricasso or are you not doing full bevels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 I grind on a vertical belt sander using a homemade Jig which is basically a piece of Angle Iron (True) with a devise to raise or lower an angle. I grind seated in front of the sander. I am not talking about a ricasso just not a full bevel or a full flat grind. Think more along the line of a Scandi grind. The line I keep losing is the line between the bevel grind and the flat part of the blade which continues to the spine. When I get home in a couple of hours I will post a picture perhaps that will help. Would you suggest trying freehand for a newer knife attempter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Not unless they are willing to suffer failure long enough to develop the skills. I learned under a swordmaker who did optically perfect grindlines 30" long with no jigs, the metal held in his hands. I'm out of practice and will never be as good as he was! (he got good grinding commercially back before all the jigs showed up...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 I tried to post pictures last night from my Ipad but I could not get it to work. I bet it was really great learning from a Sword maker. That reminds me of the guy who taught me to make longbows. He could make perfect longbows and he made it look effortless. No glue lines, perfectly symmetrical, great style. I chased him for quite a while because he was so much better than me but in the end I made much better bows because of it. A lot of my learning curve in becoming a bowyer was learning how to use certain tools in a particular way to make the bows. I think I will follow your advise and go over the grind very carefully. I think I will also do a little work on my jig, it is rudimentary. Man, it has been a long time since I have been on this end of the learning curve. Thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Skill equals effort expended over time. The longer you do it with the conscious intention of doing it better, the better you'll be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, JHCC said: Skill equals effort expended over time. The longer you do it with the conscious intention of doing it better, the better you'll be. That is true sir. Guidance + Effort = skill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 (Guidance + Effort) x talent = skill (some folks just learn certain things easier than others) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Guidance x effort x talent x time = skill. If any of those variables is zero, you're not getting any skill at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 yup but if some are low then you can still gain some skill though massive over amping the others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 Maybe (Guidance + Effort) x (Talent + Time) Perseverance = skill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 9 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: yup but if some are low then you can still gain some skill though massive over amping the others... Precisely. 5 minutes ago, Worshipdrummer said: Maybe (Guidance + Effort) x (Talent + Time) Perseverance = skill I wouldn't divide by anything desirable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 isn't Perseverance effort x time ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 7 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: isn't Perseverance effort x time ? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Good grief, this is starting to get silly. Experience is knowledge and practice, the more practice the better you get. Because I say so! Drummer, you're washing out your bevel lines because you need more practice. If you can't analyze the failures you need someone to watch you and point out your mistakes. Pretty darned hard to do online from text only so don't feel abused because we can't guess the correct answer. Hardening IS heat treating as is tempering, normalizing, annealing and even cryogenics. Okay that's a stretch but falls into the category. Oh, don't worry, blacksmithing isn't going to die because someone who's spent decades learning the craft talks to a new guy like an adult. Being told in terse or even sarcastic tones is NOTHING compared to how the steel will treat you if you don't pay attention and learn from your failures. Even if you don't like the feeling of failure the steel doesn't care it's just refined dirt and was just as happy as a rusty spot on a hillside. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 An old teacher of mine used to say, "Practice doesn't make perfect; practice makes permanent. Don't make your mistakes permanent." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 On January 6, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Frosty said: Good grief, this is starting to get silly. Experience is knowledge and practice, the more practice the better you get. Because I say so! Drummer, you're washing out your bevel lines because you need more practice. If you can't analyze the failures you need someone to watch you and point out your mistakes. Pretty darned hard to do online from text only so don't feel abused because we can't guess the correct answer. Hardening IS heat treating as is tempering, normalizing, annealing and even cryogenics. Okay that's a stretch but falls into the category. Oh, don't worry, blacksmithing isn't going to die because someone who's spent decades learning the craft talks to a new guy like an adult. Being told in terse or even sarcastic tones is NOTHING compared to how the steel will treat you if you don't pay attention and learn from your failures. Even if you don't like the feeling of failure the steel doesn't care it's just refined dirt and was just as happy as a rusty spot on a hillside. Frosty The Lucky. Thanks for the answer on my lines after refining my jig and sander a little I got better lines this weekend. As for the rest, I am trying to learn that is why I am here. I meant it when I said I do not know what I do not know. I do not like stumbling around in the dark when I can ask someone to turn the light on. I just do not see the need in insulting people for amusment. All of that being said, text is a very poor means of communication so it is very possible I have misconstrued some of the responses on this forum. In thinking about the people who I have worked with for the past 20 years if someone from the outside watched us they would likely think we hated each other because of how we act, but in reality the opposite is true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Amusement? You actually think you amuse us? I'm afraid you're still operating under an over inflated image of yourself. Not only will the craft not disappear if we talk to you like you were grown up. Nobody was insulting you for amusement sake. Nobody insulted you they just told you to refine your researching skills so you can ask good questions. You took umbrage. In spite of your attitude a number of very accomplished smiths tried to pry enough information out of you to answer your questions and you talked to them like they were playing dumb. You're still talking down to us, explaining how WE should answer your questions when it's you who doesn't know enough to define the problem? I recognize the problem, I've defined it well enough to cope and will solve it by not insulting you with further reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 13 hours ago, Frosty said: Amusement? You actually think you amuse us? I'm afraid you're still operating under an over inflated image of yourself. Not only will the craft not disappear if we talk to you like you were grown up. Nobody was insulting you for amusement sake. Nobody insulted you they just told you to refine your researching skills so you can ask good questions. You took umbrage. In spite of your attitude a number of very accomplished smiths tried to pry enough information out of you to answer your questions and you talked to them like they were playing dumb. You're still talking down to us, explaining how WE should answer your questions when it's you who doesn't know enough to define the problem? I recognize the problem, I've defined it well enough to cope and will solve it by not insulting you with further reply. I agree that this should be the end of this topic. I have spoken down to no one and as for an inflated image of myself I have already admitted more than once that I am learning and attempting to ask question in order to learn more. It was this quote " Or are you complaining you can't play Liszt properly on the piano after a week of practice?" and others like it from other threads which I was referring to when I spoke about how adults should speak to each other. All other advise, including yours, given in this thread was very helpful and appreciated and was in no way insulting. I believe you and I have some how missed each other here and that is regrettable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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