Dies and Dovetails, need some opinions

[Augus7us]

Hey Guys, I figured another Mayer Bros thread was just what the forum needed

One of the few issues I've found with my hammer is the lower dovetails look worn to me. There is hardly any angle compared to what I see in photos and literature. So my question to you guys is how would you fix it?

You can see from the photos that the top dovetails look pretty good but the bottom is almost a straight up and down. I do have Kern's book and a pdf from Sid, I believe, but none of them really detail what process and tools to use. I think the book says use a mill which is not an option! Also would you grind into the dovetail or grind the die and just clean the dovetail up?

Thanks

-Clint

[HWooldridge]

If the lower die stays put during use, why do anything to it?  Have you done any forging on the current setup?

 

[Augus7us]

The main reason is because everything I've read said it is important that the key rests flush with the die and dovetails or else it will wear improperly and could break off the dovetail. Since this guy doesn't have the removable sow block I'd like to prevent that as best I can. I'd also like to replace the dies, the pair that was included are not really to my liking.

Would you guys use a file? I'm not sure I could get an angle grinder in there and truthfully I don't know that I would use one even if I could for fear of removing too much material. Ultimately I'd like to have a pair of dies in it like the photo below.

-Clint

 

[Judson Yaggy]

Is that smooshed down weld bead in the last of A7's first set of photos?  Bit of a red flag if it is. 

Clean up a little with a file, then start inking, or take good measurements with dial calipers or inside micrometers.  There are old posts here on IFI from Grant Sarver (rip) and others on good ways to measure dovetail tapers and ways to fix them.  I've never needed to do it but I seem to recall a photo of a shaper strapped to the side of a hammer to re-cut a dovetail.  Photo is probably lost in the upgrades.  

[Augus7us]

I thought it looked like a weld bead also. I figured if so they were filling a dip or something. What would be your concerns?

[fergy]

Not sure that it is weld although it is a different colour

looks toke the hammer was used with foreign material me tween the hammer and bottom die block 

maybe the bottom die block was moving around in use and that resulted in the uneven surface 

I slotted would work but there does seem to be some angle on the bottom block 

if concerned I would file the surface and look at putting an angle on the die and then wedge in 

have you ran it how it is ?  You could just clean it up with a file and try it also 

I also know nothing about hammers so these are just ideas 

[Augus7us]

The hammer runs fine and was in use when I bought it. Aside from the dies and motor it appears to be completely original and well cared for. I couldn't find any evidence of cracks or welding but I may remove the paint and double check before repainting it. Not sure if I'm going to go through all that yet. Just want to get this sorted first and go from there.

[78sharpshooter]

Not sure if this helps but On a 50 lbs little giant I had I cleaned up the bottom of the bottom dovetail using a router with a trapezoidal stone. By referencing off of the milled area on either side of the dovetail I got the bottom near perfectly smooth and within +/- .002 across the whole surface. I then used 1/8" mild steel to shim up the lower die back to the original height.

[matto]

that would be great to see

[Augus7us]

I started grinding the top die down after a little fighting to get it out. I want it to be flatter like the lower die is. Once I finish that I will clean up the dove tails. Not sure I am brave enough to try a router, 78 did you slow yours down with a reostat or something? Mine runs at some ludicrously high rpm. I may get tired of hand filing and try it. 

Either way its going to start hammering metal. Tired of looking at it idle and I just picked up a massive vertical ford for damascus! I'll keep you guys posted.

-Clint 

[Alan Evans]

Why on earth are you altering the profile of your dies before you have even tried them as they are?

Why are they not to your liking?

Why do you consider the profile of the other dies you showed preferable? 

What are you going to be doing with your hammer that makes the distinction between these tool profiles?

The bolted shallow fullers are much less efficient and capable than the originals. The bolted system restricts your options for shouldered spreads from the end for a start. True they may help a beginner to achieve a smoother more regular surface, but a few days practise will enable you to achieve the same and a lot quicker with the smaller radius tools…

Those new tools are also too sharp on the edges for the spreading transition as shown.

If it helps to save you some unnecessary work…I worked for the best part of ten years as a full time professional with a pair of pallets the same profile as the top tool you have in the hammer. I used a drop on flat table which located on the bottom tool and gave me the opportunity to do offset forms…keeping the back flat and fullering in from one side. A very versatile combination of forms. Subsequent years I bought other larger hammers and started working with flat pallets which is quite another vocabulary, but for a direct forging hammer I found the tools were ideal.

If you find the tools as they are are not ideal for your particular work then that would be the time to alter them. I would certainly be looking to match the top tool rather than the bottom tool radius though. The combination of radii as you have them will tend to give you banana shapes. The top will move more than the bottom, but turning 180˚ on the next pass will equalise.

Alan

[Augus7us]

Alan its primary purpose will be for bladesmithing. How I've been trained and what I have been told the best dies by far are what were referred to as "Euro" dies (the  last photo). And now that I have practiced on several small and large hammers I'm not sure how I would use two different sized dies with any success. 

-Clint

[Alan Evans]

A matched pair is more straightforward in use 'tis true. The dynamic of the moving and fixed tools and the fact that you rest the workpiece on the bottom tool which chills the underside so it moves less than the top would be slightly exaggerated with the set up as it is... but by no means unusable.

As it is for bladesmithing rather than general purpose I can see the advantage of the shallower radius not being so aggressive. Certainly less liable to get a undersize bit from an extra blow.  Though I think what I said holds true…with a little bit of practice and you would be more efficient at drawing the blades out….there is not much point getting them out faster if you have to reject any for having a dimple.

I would still be inclined to spend the time getting the hammer set up and running first... do all your getting used to the machine with the existing tools…as you said, it was working fine when you bought it…then you are in a much better position to refine the tool profiles with the knowledge acquired first hand from your own hammer.

Well, you asked for opinions!

Alan

[Augus7us]

No worries Alan, I appreciate the opinions. If I was doing mostly blacksmithing stuff I wouldn't have messed with the shape of the dies at all. But with the way I come across the dies length-wise I had to even them out some. I'm not really doing any major drawing as I'm starting with bar stock and drawing the blade out from spine to edge along the length of the dies. 

The dies are definitely hardened but I have plenty of grinders and belts so I made some good progress last trip out to the shop. A little more hogging to do then I will even them both up and move on to the dove tails. Looks like I'm going to go with the files and arm power and true them up a bit then check for fit with dykem as mentioned above.

I just don't want the dovetails to crack or break off. I got a good deal on this hammer and its in fantastic shape and I want it to last another 80 or so years. But I won't deny it gets harder and harder to look at it sitting idle each time I make it out to the shop!

I'll post updates as I work on it.

-Clint

[Alan Evans]

In that case, you should sort the dovetails first. If you alter the tool alignment you will have to re dress the profiles all over again....

The dovetail cracked on my old Alldays 3cwt tup one day and I thought it likely to be the end of the world…when I cleaned up the crack I discovered it had cracked through an old weld repair. Instant relief. If it had worked for at least three years on someone else's repair it could do the same with mine. I vee-d it all out and TIG welded it with 312 rod and it has been holding up fine ever since. That was twenty odd years ago I think.

As long as the wedges fit well along the entire length of the slot so there is not a point loading, you should be in good shape.

If you have access to some engineers blue or similar, and are handy with your grinders and files you can get a good fit. Keep the wedges and packers annealed and consider using brass shim which will deform a little to fit.

There is a system of wedge making without grinding...taking an undersize bar and heating it in short sections, starting from the tip and then working back to the thick end, and upsetting it into the tapered space a bit at a time. 

The base of the bottom dovetail looks like it has had a lot of scale underneath at one time. You can see the original shaper  tool marks on the lips. which might mean you have a datum for a depth gauge to take it all down in plane.

Because you can dress the tool profiles to meet perfectly, it is not vital for the dovetail recesses to be true to one another. However if they are true, the great advantage is that it does help save you from having to redress every set of tools you put in the hammer.

Alan

[Augus7us]

Thanks Alan that is fantastic advice. And I'm glad you mentioned working on the dove tails first because in my haste I would have kept going on the dies and realized that afterwards which would likely have lead to loud cursing. 

I'm calling engineers blue dykem and plan to go that route. Fortunately the last tool I brought back to life was my surface grinder and it may see some action when I'm making the wedges. I'm going to try to get this as squared up and true as I can. 

Thanks again

-Clint

[timgunn1962]

I think Dykem is a layout fluid. I am guessing that what you want is Engineers Marking Blue, also known as Prussian Blue, possibly also as spotting blue.

The brand I use (although very rarely) is "Stuarts Micrometer"

It's used when hand scraping. It's non-drying and gets applied as a very thin layer to a surface which is then brought into contact with another (clean) surface. It transfers where it touches and you then file or hand-scrape off the blue spots and try it again, alternating the blued surfaces every so often. 

[Augus7us]

Thanks Tim, I didn't realize there was a difference. I always thought they were the same thing...

[HWooldridge]

Black Sharpie pen also works pretty well for layout and fitting...if you don't happen to have any blue.

[Frosty]

I'm cheap and have a number of oil lamps so I take the chimney off a lamp and smoke the surface I'm matching. Just pass it through the flame a time or two and it's smoked.

Same technique different marker.

Frosty The Lucky

[Smoggy]

I just know I'm going to regret this but.................

 

.....I use lipstick......

[Alan Evans]

I just know I'm going to regret this but.................

 

.....I use lipstick......

As many have mentioned in your introduction thread….you will fit in just fine here!

Alan

[ianinsa]

Smoggy, I like the fact that you are open to revealing your innermost secrets you probably wear an apron on occasion as well  , but you seem to be/ were getting off subject 

Nice cover even if a bit obvious  Alan!