Power hammer M4129

[santisandreas]

Hello there, i am opening this post to get your opinion on a used rusty power hammer i found in the northern part of my country. since Cyprus has never really had a lot of manufacturing as an island it is extremely difficult to find a used power hammer here, but on the other hand Turkey is the country that manufactures the Sahinler hammers so i thought it would be a good idea to look for one over there..  In the end we didn't even look for it, this one was found by accident when my father was passing by. anw to cut a long story short we went to see it yesterday and found out that it belonged to a public school that is now closed for the main part but opens only on Mondays. so we are going to talk to them so as to ask for a purchase price. but before i do that i wanted your opinion if this hammer is worth the trip and if yes how much is it worth.. what is the maximum price one should pay for this? as you will see in the images below the condition is quite bad since it has been sitting outside for more than five years probably but it hasn't been opened on the inside to steal any parts (except for the motor at the back). Another thing is if you happen to know which is the manufacturer and if they produce good hammers. i did some research and found a couple of manufacturers who produce similar models and here are the links. : http://www.aref.fr/Second-hand-equipment-refurbished?formulaire_action=liste_machine&formulaire_action_args=8%2FrbUXta6g97jzK6CXgnW1JaZ6bpDEyBBjIbEpuCqkRUoIMlbNRV7WkzYctpTGDNviJYLWkio4knAjIVdigxmHrJcSMRFS6P&famille=MPF&puissance_mini=0&puissance_maxi=xxxxxxx&chercher=&nom_famille=aucune&famille_ref=Open+die+hammer++&lang=en

http://scgmachinery.com/en/used-machinery-catalog/forging-hammers/ (this is the Astrakhan which is very similar to the one i found with the same model number, just a few extra letters. mine is M4129 while here is MA4129A. SO i am guessing that this is the manufacturer.) does anyone know these hammers? what can you say about them in general. After viewing the images do you think it is possible to repair this hammer and bring it back to working condition? Any advice or comments on the subject will be appreciated. thanks for reading.  

[Alan Evans]

I have been unable to post a reply in the normal way…keep getting the no permission page...so if this works maybe one of the mods could put it into the Power hammer M4129 thread...

 

I don't know anything about Stanko hammers, maybe some of the old eastern block smiths do.

It looks well made and finished. And appears little used, but the photos may be leading me astray.

It is one-piece which is an enormous advantage as far as ease of installation goes.

If you are able to undo nuts and bolts I am sure you can strip and clean it up. Make sure you take off the rust on the tup before you pull it up throughout the bore! Are you getting it at scrap price or are they wanting more? If so what is the history /provenance of it, is it in working order?

It looks similar in proportion to my 1cwt Alldays and Onions but is double acting (blown up and down) So possibly a 50 or 75 kilo tup?

The advantage you will have with it over a steel fabricated hammer like the Sahinler is the length of stroke. This is good because for the same weight of tup you generate more impact, and you have the height and clearance to use top tools more readily.

Compare the prices if you can get this one cheap enough to allow some money for the refurbishment. As long as nothing is broken, a simple check to see if the drive wheel will move back and forward and is connected to the piston will tell you most of what you need to know...

Do some more research, get in touch with Olga and Sergiy Polubotko in the Ukraine, they organise the annual blacksmiths conference in Ivano-Frankivsk and may well know somebody with such a hammer.

 

If I could raise the money I would not hesitate. I would have no fear of being able to get a working hammer out of something like that... I may be horribly over-optimistic of course.

 

Obviously you must check it carefully for signs of damage and misuse, but the engineering is fairly basic and robust. Even if it cost you double the purchase price in rebuild parts you will be ending up with a more versatile tool than a Sahinler, Kuhn, Reiter or Gruell type. The only part you would have difficulty and uneconomic expense to replace will be the main frame casting.

 

Alan

Edited July 4, 2015 by Alan Evans

[santisandreas]

Hello Alan, thanks for the response. i don't know why you couldn't post a reply to my topic but i haven't changed anything to cause that, it might have been a problem of the site. i will check as soon as i am done here. Firstly i will talk about some details you pointed out. i presume that it is of little use because it was in a school for voluntary use of the students, so it is safe to say that it wasn't used very much and seems to be in a very good condition for a model from 1968. but on the other hand i am not sure for these details since i just talked to a stranger who was working there and new nothing about the machinery and what it was used for. but he said that the school is closed now and opens only on Mondays. So i will go in two days from now hoping that i will find someone who is in charge there and ask some questions about the hammer, as well as the conditions of purchase. most probably they will not ask for a lot since the school is closed, so i am guessing that i will get it at scrap price. but we will see on Monday. you are right about that test. i will try it. but unfortunately i don't know all the parts yet so i have to do more research. I have tested the pedal and it doesn't work so i am guessing that it has some minor problems from the rust and the dust since it has been sitting outside for some time now. But i will know more on Monday so i will get back to you with more soon. thank you for mentioning Olga and Sergei Polubotco, i will contact them for info sometime.  

[Alan Evans]

I cannot even post to my own thread now! trying again with a different browser....

Have a look at the Beche Valve thread for alternate views on damage to hammers that have been exposed to the elements.

Nobody can really advise you as to whether you will be lucky, especially just on the strength of a few photographs!

Without seeing the actual thing and getting a sense of its condition or knowing your attraction to it. You really are on your own.

I know I have bought things almost on a whim because I liked the thought of them rather than by being coldly analytical about the good and bad points and the likely financial loss or gain. Sometimes it has paid off sometimes it hasn't. When it hasn't worked out it has however helped that I lost money and spent time on something I liked!

If you can find someone to tell you that they have one and it is a joy to use when it is up together, that should give you the confidence to go for it.

If everybody that has one says that they are a constant source of trouble that is another matter...but I would be sure to ask them why they have stuck with it if it is so bad...may give a better/realistic perspective.

Looking forward to hearing more

Alan

Edited July 4, 2015 by Alan Evans

[santisandreas]

hey Alan, i didn't have any news that's why i didn't respond for some time. at the school they just said that the hammer was in a very good condition with no working problems close to new. it was in the technical department of the school for some time but no one used it and then when that department shut down they placed all the machinery outside under a shed. it appears to be sealed well so i am thinking that the damage cost by the elements will be mostly external. The man said that it belongs to the government so he will ask for permission to sell it. i tried stepping on the pedal operating the hammer and it was moving with difficulty but it wasn't stuck. I have no one to check it if it works though, do you have any clues on what to check besides what you mentioned before? how do i check that btw? i don't know what it is. the motor is missing only from what i saw until now. thanks for reading!

[Alan Evans]

That all sounds very hopeful. The motor may not be too far away. Are there bolt fixings for the motor on the hammer or was it on a seperate mounting?

At this stage if you can get it at a nominal figure I can't see you going wrong. 

The guy you spoke to who said it was working fine before decommissioning would presumably have no reason to mislead you.

Before it is moved I would take a paint scraper and take off any rust that is on the tup. This is just in case the people that lift and shift it do not push the rusty tup up into the bore.

If you wanted to check it will work before you commit, you should take the cylinder heads off and ensure that the bores, pistons, con rod and bearings are all present and correct. A long bar under the flywheel will tell you whether the main bearings are good, though I have seen a working one with almost 6mm (1/4") of play. 

Frankly I don't think you need to bother. However, if you will be hard stretched financially to take it on, then any checking will be worth doing. Take a friend who knows about machinery with you to get a second opinion.

The valve gear is an unknown to me, but nothing about these hammers tend to be high tech. Just good simple engineering. With a lathe and possibly a milling machine you can make most of the parts.

Have you done any more research into the maker?

Alan

Edited July 14, 2015 by Alan Evans

[santisandreas]

yes, i too agree that it is 99% a good deal considering that the school principal has no benefit on this deal. i guess it will be bought at a scrap value price which is very cheap around these parts. i am assuming that the price will be from 800 to 1500 euros max. i will take a friend to help me and get a second opinion but i don't think that i will need to run any tests. it is quite difficult to do so there at the school because it is in the occupied part of my country which adds pressure on all matters. i think the motor was at the back where the cage is cracked open, if you see in the images posted at the beginning. but i am not sure. if it is indeed missing i will buy a new motor as part of the renovation. but this is a matter that will be dealt later. i will see if the guy pulls through and we can buy it. by then i will post any news abot the subject, thanks for your advice, i will consider it when i make another visit. thanks again!

 

[BANAN]

It is the Soviet hammer. Information about it can find no problem at forum.ostmetal.info

[jhegge]

I have a MA 4129 A in my shop and I am very impressed with the quality of the hammer. I recently exchange messages with an individual from the company that is currently selling these hammers and he quoted me the purchase price of $8,000.00 +/-. From the pictures you have attached it appears that the hammer has had light use. Look for the obvious issues related to the hammer sitting and offer something appropriate for a price. 

 

[ThomasPowers]

try for scrap price minus hauling costs

[Judson Yaggy]

VERY small market on Cypress I would guess, if the OP has any pretensions towards turning full time pro I'd avoid starting off with a reputation for driving the cheapest deal around.  A good power hammer will pay you back.  Scrap minus hauling costs on an island probably means *they* owe *you* money!

Do a little disassembly onsite to figure how complicated a rebuild might be.  Give a firm price, don't be afraid to walk away.  Then call back in 6 months when it's still sitting there.  

[santisandreas]

thanks for your replies! sorry for the so late response! the deal with that hammer is now gone. there is no chance i can purchase it. I contacted the government with several letters and we got nowhere. they said that because it is the property of the state that it has to go on auction and they are not willing to do that for now but they will contact me if they do. As of now i am looking for a space to make my workshop in Larnaca and then i will purchase an air hammer but i am looking for another option besides the Sahinler SM50. can you suggest any places to look for a used one or even a new one? i have checked on Angele but the pricing is too high for me. i cannot make such an investment so soon into the craft. i am looking for something at a maximum price of 8000 euros. Jhegge which company makes the hammer you have? can you sent me any links to the suppliers or the manufacturer? it would be appreciated!  

[VaughnT]

If you want a power hammer, there are plenty of designs on the internet that would allow you to make your own.  Even living in Cyprus, it would be rather easy to find the metal needed and assemble something that would get the job done in a professional fashion.