church window anvils

[stan]

This anvil for sale at the moment don`t plan to buy it but wondered how rear it is with its church windows.Weighs 438lbs.

[neg]

That is my dream anvil.

[alextynan]

Where abouts is that, and how much is it going for?

[stan]

Hi alextynan its in WA up to $1520 with 20 hours to go

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alextynan]

A bit out of my beginners price range! Thanks for the tip off though.

[Dan P.]

That's a nice lookiong anvil but the "church windows" don't anything to its value, in my opinion, apart from rarity.

[VaughnT]

I would gladly pay $2000 for an anvil like that.  Nearly new in all respects, and it has some nice deep church windows.

You can't get church windows on newly made anvils, and 400# anvils are definitely hard to find - new or used.  Do the church windows add value to the anvil?  Well, as a swage, yes.  You can use them to form bowls and curves, though they probably won't get used very often unless you make a line of product that just happens to need that curvature.

However, we can't discount the value that beauty plays in our tools.  Anyone can fabricate an anvil, but creating an anvil that is beautiful and inspires beauty in the shop... well, that's worth a dollar or two in my book.

If I had a decent paycheck coming in, I wouldn't hesitate to pay $6 a pound for that anvil.  Maybe I'd even go to $7.  The size and shape are perfect for general blacksmithing tasks, and she's a genuine beauty to behold.  Very rare tool, so why not spend good money to acquire it?

[ThomasPowers]

And I wouldn't pay US$3 a pound for it as lovely as it is; I'd take that excess $$$ and buy a powerhammer.

[HWooldridge]

It appears the edges may have been welded on at some point - which would detract from the value to a degree.

[Dan P.]

To counterpoint VaughnT's enthusiasm, I would not pay $1500 Australian dollars for that to use as an anvil. There must be much cheaper anvils to be found, or objects that can function very well as anvils. Unless you are buying it as an antique, or art, or your assets are feeling very fluid and you just really, really can't be without it.

And I also want to add for the record that those "church windows" are just an old European anvil making convention. They don't serve any particular intended purpose, and I believe that even the term "church windows" has its origin somewhere deep in the guts of the internet, probably anvilfire or somewhere. 

[Anthony San Miguel]

This one was at an auction house here in San Antonio this past Saturday and I went to try and win it. It weighed at least 250lbs, maybe 300. I wanted it really bad but $500 was my limit. Some lucky guy got it for $600 and I'm watching eBay where he will probably put it up for $1200. It was a JEB Austrian anvil that came in a lot from the Czech Republic.

[stan]

Hi Anthony that looks like a pretty special anvil shame you missed out.

[stan]

It appears the edges may have been welded on at some point - which would detract from the value to a degree.

​Yeah see what you mean about being welded on that section along 4" from the horn.The other side looks suspect also.

[Anthony San Miguel]

Hi Anthony that looks like a pretty special anvil shame you missed out.

Hello Stan. Yes, I will probably regret not getting it for the rest of my life. The guy I bought my Hay Budden from had a 125lb Mouse Hole Forge anvil and I had to go buy it as a consolation prize because I was so heart broken!

[matei campan]

that s Austrian pattern anvil is the most common pattern in central and eastern Europe, maybe 90% of the anvils, like the London pattern in the US, that's "the anvil" in the people's mind. and theJEBs tend to dish more than other anvils, maybe from it's construction or from the kind of use and abuse they suffered, that's a very common issue on them. the perfect flat ones are very rare. that doesn't mean the faces are not hard and the rebound poor. it's interesting that the communist era copies you can find here, even that the faces are softer, they don't tend to dish, but to rather "mushroom".

[tjokie]

On 5/7/2015 at 11:48 PM, stan said:

This anvil for sale at the moment don`t plan to buy it but wondered how rear it is with its church windows.Weighs 438lbs.

Same with this one? 196kg

[BartW]

I got one fairly similar, built in 1908 in Belgium in Herstal in the guns factory.  I find the holes in the side with different radii usefull for making coal shovels and such.  It behaves different from a solid cast tool steel anvil, but it's very pleasant to forge on.
You can find a LOT info about it here : 

 

 

[Jobtiel1]

I have a church window anvil made in the late 18th century. And while I have rarely used the church windows, it's really useful when I do need them. especially the curves are nice to have for making shovels etc. If you don't have a swage block it's even more useful to have more versatility in your anvil.

In this video, Joey van der Steeg outlines some technical differences between functional church windows, and non-functional, like often seen on the Austrian anvils.

 

[Charlie M]

I'm a bit late to this one, but why do most church window anvils only have the window on one side and not both? Also, would the windows be hardened to some degree?

[Glenn]

Your video is marked private and will not allow it to be viewed.

[Julianb]

23 hours ago, Charlie M said:

I'm a bit late to this one, but why do most church window anvils only have the window on one side and not both? Also, would the windows be hardened to some degree?

Hello,

 

it is believed that the flat side is there to lay the anvil on its back and use the church windows as a kind of swage. No, they're not hardened.

 

Cheers!

[Charlie M]

Thank you for the reply

I am considering getting some anvils cast- do you think it would be wrong to put windows on both sides? I am thinking 2 windows on one side and 3 windows on the other. I plan on having no slope on the sides tho, and a 5" wide face- so for that reason only making the windows a half inch deep.

Also how deep would you harden the face, 1"?

And what tensile strength, and yeild strength.

Sorry this went a bit off topic

[Frosty]

Tensile and yield strength don't come into play for anvils, you aren't going to stretch or bend them. Unless you can hit a LOT harder than anybody I know of!

I don't see why you couldn't put church windows on both sides. If you're going to use them as swages you'll have to make allowances for it to lay flat so it can't rock in use.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charlie M]

Boy don't I look silly haha. I meant toughness- is there a certain number the toughness should be at?

What is the best depth of hardening?

[Frosty]

Ah, it's easy to mix terms. Not knowing what you're using I'd suggest as hard as doesn't chip easily. My Soderfors is Rc 60+ cast Swedish steel but has chips missing from the edges though not badly. At a guess I'd draw it lower, no more than say Rc 55, 58 if you're bold.

I can't say how deep to run the hardness other than as deep as possible. On that mass of steel residual heat will make it self tempering and no additives I've ever heard of will prevent it from steam jacketing.

Soderfors hardened anvils under a flume. X gallons of x temp water in an x diameter stream for x seconds. They cast their anvils in steel molds and opened the mold when it was the right temperature to harden. They had it down to specific practices for each model and size. Some models of Soderfors anvils were broken out of the mold then went into closed forging dies, THEN under the water flume for heat treatment.

I read ABOUT it years ago but have no actual numbers for you. 

I could be wrong but I believe mine is hard more than 3" deep but that's on the sides, no telling what depth the center of the face over the center of the anvil body's main reservoir of heat was. 

Frosty The Lucky.