HWHII Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 So a few weeks back I asked for some advise on working a charcoal forge on my new job and got some great advice! Well I have been running this forge for 2 weeks now and still having a big issue. I can not get a welding heat. I have a deep fire and can get a good yellow heat up to 3/4" stock. On 1/4" I almost can get there but not quite. It is a bellows driven forge with a 1 " air pipe into the forge and it is a bottom blast with no ash dump. Any ideas or suggestions guys? Also would a side blast forge be more suitable for this time period of 1700s frontier fort trading post, and would it make a difference? I would post a picture but can't right now but will later. THANKS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Greetings Harold, Glad to see your on your new job... When I told my friend Pat that you were going to work he told me he was familiar with it and wishes you well working with charcoal and getting the forge up to welding heat.. He is a professional smith and has spent many days on the island.. I will call him and ask if he has any suggestions.... Good luck and stay in touch... Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 16, 2014 Author Share Posted May 16, 2014 Pat Hayden ? From Kalkaska? Met him at Walloon Lake two years ago. Nice guy. Hope to catch up to you soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 My first thaught would be to weight the top leaf of the belows to increase the pressure. This might get you there. I belive that a side blast would certainly be periud corect as aposed to the bottom blast. I also know the cast ducksnest came along some where olonge there but im not sure exactly when. But i know who id ask, and thery all are on this foram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 16, 2014 Author Share Posted May 16, 2014 My first thaught would be to weight the top leaf of the belows to increase the pressure. This might get you there. I belive that a side blast would certainly be periud corect as aposed to the bottom blast. I also know the cast ducksnest came along some where olonge there but im not sure exactly when. But i know who id ask, and thery all are on this foram. Thanks, but it already has a counter weight. I am using some large river rocks to make a duck nest and have thought about make one out of some heavy flat bar. I think the heat I am getting now is because of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo7 Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 not a mouse nest in the bellow's is there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
781 Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Will it weld with coal if not it has to be air flow. I can burn steel with charcoal every day. You are not using briquets are you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Counter weights are not a static device. The use of more or less weight dependent on the job is the norm. Less weight for charcoal, more for coal, less weight for a smaller or cooler fire, more for a bigger or hotter fire. The hot may be down farther or up higher in the fire than you expect, or your just not waiting for things to get hot enugh. Its not instant on, takes a few seconds for the charcoal to go from red hot to white hot, and much more time for the steel to chatch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Instead of playing 20,000 questions would be so kind as to help by describing your set up in detail? You haven't even mentioned whether it's a box bellows or twin single action or a double lunged bellows, the size of the stock you are trying to weld, etc... And yes a side blown set up is period correct. Would this be the North American Frontier or one of the others in the world? Moxon's Mechanick Exercises published in 1703 might have some useful information in it if you find a copy that has the blacksmithing section as many are published with just the printing section...my full copy was printed by the Astragal press Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Will it weld with coal if not it has to be air flow. I can burn steel with charcoal every day. You are not using briquets are you.Will it weld with coal if not it has to be air flow. I can burn steel with charcoal every day. You are not using briquets are you. Using real charcoal. Might ask if I can try some coal. Good idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Instead of playing 20,000 questions would be so kind as to help by describing your set up in detail? You haven't even mentioned whether it's a box bellows or twin single action or a double lunged bellows, the size of the stock you are trying to weld, etc... And yes a side blown set up is period correct. Would this be the North American Frontier or one of the others in the world? Moxon's Mechanick Exercises published in 1703 might have some useful information in it if you find a copy that has the blacksmithing section as many are published with just the printing section...my full copy was printed by the Astragal press Thomas it is hard for me to tell exactly, I believe it is a twin single action. They believe it could be a 200 year old bellows. The ribs are actually bent tree branches. I will try to get some good pictures of it before work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Greetings Harold, Why don't you rig up a stand alone 400 blower add some non bag charcoal and see what happens.. If it works great if not add some coal .. That should tell the story on your fire pot and forge performance.. I hope this helps.. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Greetings Harold, Why don't you rig up a stand alone 400 blower add some non bag charcoal and see what happens.. If it works great if not add some coal .. That should tell the story on your fire pot and forge performance.. I hope this helps.. Forge on and make beautiful things JimGreetings Harold, Why don't you rig up a stand alone 400 blower add some non bag charcoal and see what happens.. If it works great if not add some coal .. That should tell the story on your fire pot and forge performance.. I hope this helps.. Jim, I would sure like to, but being a museum they are set on looks more than function. Going to have to find a way to make it work some how. Not being able to forge weld will limit what I can do for sure. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Greetings Harold, I mean just as a test... The stand alone blower would tell you if you have an air volume problem.. Not for a permanent installation. If you do not have a blower available give me a call I have extras.. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Charles, so today I burnt a piece of 1/2 inch. I was surprised! This type of fire is very temperamental? Could not get it to happen again. After analyzing it, perhaps I am not letting the fire coal up and burn down. Maybe I am adding to much fuel and the fire is burning to fast like a camp fire. Is this possible? Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 My first thought is that you are not getting enough volume of air through that 1" pipe. Try a different air source like a hand crank blower, hair drier, or a shop-vac. All of my antique forges have 2"+ air inlets. You should be able to make a sparkler out of 1/4" no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 Here are some photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Harold: Yeah, that's too little air grate. It needs 2" minimum. If you get enough air through a 1" grate it'll be moving so fast it'll burn a hole through the heart of the fire and burn anything in the heart. Large grate = enough air at low velocity = lots of heat low in the mound. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo7 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 looks like the grate may be blocked with clinker as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 looks like the grate may be blocked with clinker as well Turbo, no clinker with charcoal, but there is a little charcoal in the bottom. I did not clean it out yet as it was first thing in the morning when I took this picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 Frosty, Not sure what to do here. Not sure they are willing to rebuild this and if they did it would be in the off season when the park is closed. If they were I would suggest a side draft. Probably just going to have to deal with. I can get a good for heat better than propane for sure. I am mostly doing demonstrations for the public, but they are starting to ask me to do more projects for the park. Might just have to bring them home and MIG weld them. Would be much easier to just forge weld it right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 So I want to give you all a update on my progress. Thanks to you all and Jymm Hoffman here is where I am at. I now can constantly burn metal of all thickneses! A forge weld is soon to come. What I have done is built a U shaped ducks nest with river rock to get a deep fire. The air blast is in the center. I divide the fire into 3rds. The back is for fresh charcoal the center for hot area and the front is for a coaled up area and ash in the front. I find my good spot is in front edge of the air blast grate where the coals have coaled up but still hot. As I work the fire I keep bringing it forward adding new fuel to the back while watering the sides. It seems to be working so far! It is very temperamental and needs constant attention. If not it takes a bit to get the balance back. I am using about 25 lbs of charcoal in 6 hrs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 When you say river rock you don't mean rocks out of a river do you Harold? Rocks that have been laying in water or even wet ground can explode when heated much above boiling temp. Sounds like you have a good shape for the duck's nest. I'm surprised the fire is so touchy though. It sounds like the working zones are really narrow. That hasn't been my experience with charcoal. It makes me wish I could light a fire in that forge and see what I don't get about it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 30, 2014 Author Share Posted May 30, 2014 When you say river rock you don't mean rocks out of a river do you Harold? Rocks that have been laying in water or even wet ground can explode when heated much above boiling temp. Sounds like you have a good shape for the duck's nest. I'm surprised the fire is so touchy though. It sounds like the working zones are really narrow. That hasn't been my experience with charcoal. It makes me wish I could light a fire in that forge and see what I don't get about it. Frosty The Lucky. Frosty, river rock is just a term, I have also heard them refered to as field stones. Yes the the are smooth have not had them explode but they do crack after time. At this point they will not let me use fire brick. I am thing about making a steel u shaped piece out 1/2" x 4" mild steel and stacking rocks aroun the outside. The work zone is a normal size it is just the high heat zone that is difficult to maintain. Found a few air leaks and put some clear silicone on the bellows last night. Can't wait to get to work today to give it a try. Which brings up another point. For sometime now I have lost my disire to forge, but this job has given me a pick me up. I can't wait to go to work and want to stay later to forge some more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 So this metal horse shoe piece has been the answer to all my problems along with fixing some minor leaks in the bellows. I would have liked to make it out of heavier stock but this will work fine. It allows me to better control, consintrate the air blast, size and depth of the fire. The rocks around the sides keeps it in place. If I need a bigger fire I just slide it back. If need to slide a long piece in, just pick up the back and slide a flat rock underneath. I have made forge welds now on 1/2" and am now able to start making chain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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