Punch Lubes

[Eddie Mullins]

Just wondering how prevelant or beneficial the use of a punch lube is. I primarily am working with smaller stock sizes 3/4" thick and under and don't currently use a lube.

 

I have found Hofi's formula  and references to using coal dust and other home brews as well as comercial products available in bulk only.

 

I'm willing to try for myself to see if there is benefit but was looking for some feedback before I went out and bought something.

[HWooldridge]

Coal dust works pretty well in the size ranges you have described. Start the hole so there is a depression then add the dust and resume punching. I use H13 to make hot punches and can cool them in water to prevent deformation.

[Francis Trez Cole]

I use coal dust(you should have some) and finely ground scale (you have that also) it works great. it is important to remove the punch after each hit.

[Nobody Special]

I've used coal dust, works pretty well if you don't wait too long, otherwise it get's consumed.

[metalmangeler]

On thin punching I use bees wax. On thicker stuff (like hammer eyes) I use small chunks of coal, I think the soot may work as a lube, the expanding gasses also push the punch back out, once the hole is through the stock you might notice this effect is lost. I will go several blows before removing my punch, I think doing so after every 3 blows would be better than what I do, this will depend on how fast you are moving etc. The main point is that your punch is expanding due to heat and your hole is contracting due to loss of heat so they will want to stick together. It is better to separate them before they become a sculpture. :)

[Eddie Mullins]

Thanks - I do have coal dust on hand, so will give it a go. The addtion of fine scale is another new one, I guess I'll stop throwing it out when I clean up : ) .

 

The main point is that your punch is expanding due to heat and your hole is contracting due to loss of heat so they will want to stick together.

 

I had not thought about it in those terms, seems obvious now though...

[VaughnT]

Ground up coal and scale work well.  In the past, I've mixed mine with parafin or bees wax to make a manageable stick.  After knocking over my dish of dust a few times, making it a solid waxy stick seemed like a really good idea!

 

I've also added group up pencil lead to the mix, but I don't know if that made any measurable difference.  Graphite from carpenter's pencils is rather easy to extract, but still more work than just grinding up a bit of coal and scale.

[Ian Wille]

If you have an farm and feed stores near you, you might look look around for graphite seed flow lube. I found some at a local Orscheln's and have had decent results with it plain. I'm next going to try mixing it with some dish soap and water like Hofi's recipe. It's on the list to try out this coming weekend.

[rockstar.esq]

I've found finely powdered graphite for sale in hardware stores in the lock section.  It's a dandy dry lubricant for use in areas prone to freezing.

 

I've also found that it has an impressive ability to stain just about everything it touches.  Be careful because a little cloud of it will drift quite a ways to ruin something precious.  

[Frosty]

I've found finely powdered graphite for sale in hardware stores in the lock section.  It's a dandy dry lubricant for use in areas prone to freezing.

 

I've also found that it has an impressive ability to stain just about everything it touches.  Be careful because a little cloud of it will drift quite a ways to ruin something precious.  

 

Graphite has a reputation of migrating to everything same as silicone lube, get a drop on your pinky and in a little while it'll be behind your ear and making your socks sag.

 

If you mix your graphite with a little grease it'll tame it down some.

 

While I haven't tried it, I just don't remember like I used to, I think a carpenter's pencil would be good punch, slitter, drift, etc. lube. It's graphite in a clay matrix to keep it in a stick but it's still slick. It also makes a good solder stop if you need to control where solder goes.

 

 

Anyway, graphite in grease works pretty well and I think soft pencil graphite will do the trick.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[rockstar.esq]

Frosty,  Wouldn't grease catch fire or does the graphite temper that behavior?

 

I'll have to try the carpenters pencil idea.  They sell refillable carpenter's pencils here so maybe the refills would be a nice way to avoid constant whittling.

[Frosty]

If you let your punches, etc. call em penetraters get very hot it's going to flash, so will: wax, bees or otherwise, soap, coal dust, Crisco, etc. I sort of got used to it.

 

Why whittle, if it's hot enough to cause grease to flash a little wood isn't going to get in the way, just rub it end on to the penetrator.

 

That said I haven't tried it so I may be completely full of . . . something.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Eddie Mullins]

Frosty - maybe I'm missing something here, but aren't carpentry pencils, simply a flattened pencil with a fairly hard lead.

 

I have some solid graphite sketching sticks, those or similar may be a good option.

[knots]

Years a go I bought a 25 pound bag of graphite powder intended for use in metal casting sand.  You can find bulk materials on line or one pound jars of graphite powder at art supply stores.  Amazon has a number of graphite source options that are far more economical that hardware stores.

[Fe-Wood]

I don't know if this will get removed but I make and sell a quench pot kit. It contains about 5 oz. of supper fine graphite, a spun (by me) 16g thick galvanized pot, magnet for hanging on the anvil and an acid brush. I use them as a quenchent AND lubricant. Here is a link to my website. http://www.oregonhandforged.com/quench-pots/

 

If you tell me you saw this on IFI I will make a $2.00 donation to IFI with each sale.

[Eddie Mullins]

Found some graphite and moly on ebay at reasonable prices, so I guess I'll give it a go.

[yahoo2]

I buy anti seize thread paste for machinery maintenance and you can never get the last of it out of the can, so that ends up as drifting lube.

 

ATM I am using Molykote P-37, despite the name it contains zirconium dioxide rather than MoS₂

[Frosty]

Frosty - maybe I'm missing something here, but aren't carpentry pencils, simply a flattened pencil with a fairly hard lead.

 

I have some solid graphite sketching sticks, those or similar may be a good option.

 

Noooooo, don't be silly Eddie! They make them special, if you flattened a pencil that wide it'd be a smudge. They're generally #4B, (I think) pretty soft. There are lots of graphite solids, sketching sticks or bits of casting crucibles or just buy a soap bar size block. I'm pretty cheap where allowable and I have bunches of carpenter's pencils. They USED to give them away if you bought more than a few boards at the lumber yard.

 

I'm betting one of your sketching sticks would work a treat if it were in the mid to high Bs, lots of deposition.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Neil Blythin]

ATM I am using Molykote P-37, despite the name it contains zirconium dioxide rather than MoS₂

And you're happy breathing that stuff in when it burns?

[dntfxr]

I just rub soapstone on the punch, works good and no mess. Won't flash off but wipes clean when done.

[Borntoolate]

This may sound dumb but I am sincere.    

 

Why do we need a punch lube?    What does it do?   What does it help or prevent?  

 

I am not asking because I think we don't need it.   I am asking because I don't know why.

 

I am no expert but I have punched a few holes.  

 

For some strange reason I collect the pellets that pop out when they don't disappear through the pritchel into the void of heats scale below.  These are just super cool for some strange reason.    :wub:

[ptree]

I have worked in a number of large commercial forges, as well as forging at home. Graphite works, is filthy and gets everywhere. It is a combustible dust, a problem in big shops that use lots. it is also contaiminated with silca, in the respirable form, also bad news for lungs. That said all things dusty and smokey are bad news to the lungs. I have tried and compared  salt, decomposes and gives off chlorine that will definetly make you squint and is bad news, moly, dusty but effective, graphite see above. Scale works a little. Coal dust works a little.

I was the one who introduced the alkaline salt based commercial lube to blacksmiths. I am working on trying to convince a maker to retail to smiths, and if not I may spring for a drum, devide and sell.

But make no bones, the commercial lubes, used as directed are like putting ball bearings on your tools.They go deeper per hit, last longer, give smoother results and do not smoke. The one I like best is water based and freezing does not hurt it. It is applied to a tool hot enough to evaporate the water and leave a tan dry solid film that sticks and does not flake off. I use it at 50:50 with water. It does not need stirring once mixed.

 

Also remember that NO lubricant can overcome the simple physics, that is if you allow the tool to be in the hot metal long enough to reach too high a temp it will deform and mushroom into the hole. No stopping that. The solid film lube allows deeper per hit so in the hole less for same depth, but you still have to cool the tool. That is where the water in the mix comes in. Water asorbs a huge amount of heat in flashing to steam cooling the tool, and leaving that film behind.

[Fe-Wood]

Get yourself some graphite and mix it with a bit of water to a runny batter consistancy. Using your favorite punch and drift set up, go ahead and punch a hole and drift it all without lube. Then do the exact same thing with the graphite lube. You will be surprised how easy the lube makes the work happen and how little the steel deforms. Also, the water mixed with the lube cools the tool so you don't overheat it. Graphite and water are way better than anything I have used because all it does is steam the water off when you use it. All the petro and coal based lubes burn and smoke nasty fumes. Let use know what you think!!!

[Frosty]

I have worked in a number of large commercial forges, as well as forging at home. Graphite works, is filthy and gets everywhere. It is a combustible dust, a problem in big shops that use lots. it is also contaiminated with silca, in the respirable form, also bad news for lungs. That said all things dusty and smokey are bad news to the lungs. I have tried and compared  salt, decomposes and gives off chlorine that will definetly make you squint and is bad news, moly, dusty but effective, graphite see above. Scale works a little. Coal dust works a little.

I was the one who introduced the alkaline salt based commercial lube to blacksmiths. I am working on trying to convince a maker to retail to smiths, and if not I may spring for a drum, devide and sell.

But make no bones, the commercial lubes, used as directed are like putting ball bearings on your tools.They go deeper per hit, last longer, give smoother results and do not smoke. The one I like best is water based and freezing does not hurt it. It is applied to a tool hot enough to evaporate the water and leave a tan dry solid film that sticks and does not flake off. I use it at 50:50 with water. It does not need stirring once mixed.

 

Also remember that NO lubricant can overcome the simple physics, that is if you allow the tool to be in the hot metal long enough to reach too high a temp it will deform and mushroom into the hole. No stopping that. The solid film lube allows deeper per hit so in the hole less for same depth, but you still have to cool the tool. That is where the water in the mix comes in. Water asorbs a huge amount of heat in flashing to steam cooling the tool, and leaving that film behind.

 

I'm a little lost, when you say commercial lubes are you referring to the 55gl. drum commercial or are there pint and quart commercial products?

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JNewman]

I have a 5 gallon drum of the commercial lube and I like it for some things like punching a bunch of holes,  I also use it on some bending dies I use on my press.  What I don't like about it is the necessity to heat the tools enough to flash off the water.  If I am punching a hole or 2 it can be a pain to use.  I am using it watered down much more than Ptree is,  I will have to try a richer mix. 

 

I have a mix of graphite and oil that works really well but is smoky.  I don't like using a lot of it because of the smoke.  Anti seize is similar in smokiness and effectiveness but the graphite oil mixture is way cheaper.

 

I also have graphite mixed with water and a tiny bit of dish soap to help it mix in.  The graphite tends to settle to the bottom so it has to be mixed regularly.  and it really makes a mess I get black spots on everything.  Where I use the graphite water mix is in dies that tend to pound scale in to the work.  I  make sure the dies are wet so the steam blasts off the scale.  It does keep the dies cool enough that they chill the work but it really helps prevent deep pits from the scale.

 

I would not want to be without any of the lubes I am using.  They all have strengths and weaknesses and it makes sense to use the different ones for different uses.  I have the 2 liquid lubes in garden sprayers and will fill a cup for a specific job if necessary.  The oil graphite mix is more a paste and I keep it in a plastic tub.