Mixing gasses question.

[Keganthewhale]

So I spit this question out in the chat room last night and got some fun answers in return, but I want to know If anyone else knows what will
Happen!
So here is the idea: I have a diamondback forge which normally uses propane and whatever the oxygen content of the atmosphere around them. Now what would happen if I were to take an HHO generator, which uses electolosis to separate water into it's dual gassious form: hydrogen and oxygen. So these generators produce the gas (aka brown gas) on demand, which means you can't you really store it because if you do it will eventually recombine back into water, which means you can't pressurize it. So, if it were to flow into the intake, what will the effects be?

[Crazy Ivan]

I cant give you an educated answer, but my first thought was "Hindenburg 2.0"...

-Crazy Ivan

[jmccustomknives]

It would work, given the proper orifices.  The main problem, as problems are, is that the amount of energy it takes to break the water molecules apart is greater than the amount you would get.  Those pesky Laws of Thermal Dynamics.  <_<

[Keganthewhale]

Well thankfully there wouldn't be thousands of cubic yards of only hydrogen and paint with lead in it haha

I was thinking a car battery doing the separating and a solar panel doing the charging of the battery, and yes I understand that's ridiculous, however, I'm really just thinking in the hypothetical, not something I am willing to pour precious time and money in for unknown results. I've just seen them use a small hho generator to create enough gasses to make a little torch out of, so as to a supplement a propane forge.

[ThomasPowers]

More bang for your buck building a forge with more insulation.

 

Note that an aspirated burner is tuned to draw in close to the amount of O2 it needs for a complete burn at pretty much any working presure.  Increasing the O2 content means you get a lean burn very bad for most types of forging.  If you turn up the gas pressure it automatically draws in more O2 so you still have excess O2.

 

I have melted steel at 5000' using a simple aspirated forge exactly how much hotter do you need it to be and *WHY*?

[Keganthewhale]

My idea wasn't to get it hotter than normal, merely to use less propane psi. But again, still very much hypothetical, my brain just gets curious but doesn't have the means to test it in many cases, do I dig for information among the wiser. :)

[Jim Kehler]

I too am interested in the possibilities of hydrogen or Brown's gas as fuel for forging but haven't been able to figure out how big a eletrolysis set-up one would need. I really don't see that (with proper handling) hydrogen would be any more dangerous than propane.

[Frosty]

Look into jewelry torches, you can buy O-H separators off the shelf. It'd be fun to doodle around with for the fun of it but for a LOT less electric bill you could buy an induction forge.

 

Brown gas is if I'm not mistaken CO, not hydrogen. It's why putting your head in the oven was such a sure means of suicide during the gas light era and it was such a killer if it leaked. It'd both gas you AND blow you into the next neighborhood.

 

The paint on the Zeppelins was aluminum powder and iron oxide in "dope", not lead. Dope being the varnish or whatever it really is used to paint the fabric on fabric covered aircraft, same stuff I used on string controlled, model planes.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Ok think of it this way  Each propane molecule has a certain amount of energy that it releases when burned as long as you are getting enough O2 to burn each molecule completely  you CAN'T get more energy!  (And actually putting in more air than is needed for a burn cools down the forge.)

 

So if your propane is set to deliver 10 units of gas producing 10xBTU per unit of propane  adding O2 and cutting the propane supply in half should yield 1/2 the heat  Not what you are trying to do!

 

Now with a blown burner where the orifice and the air supply are not linked you would get more useful heat as you could get a complete burn with less extraneous N2 having to be heated wasting that heat.  So you could tune that burner to give you the same amount of usable heat for a lower amount of propane as less is wasted heating up the useless N2

[Keganthewhale]

So even though you are adding oxygen and hydrogen and propane together, and whatever is in the atmosphere should you not produce enough hho for it to be the only thing drawn in, it could very well burn cooler?

[ThomasPowers]

The amount of heat a burner puts out at complete combustion is dependent on the how much fuel combusts minus the heat lost to the amount of N2 it has to heat up.

 

IF you mix gasses it can go higher, lower or stay the same depending on the mix and the completeness of the combustion and the amount of N2 involved.

 

HOWEVER just turning up the propane will get you hotter cheaper and faster in a forge than messing with mixing gasses.  If you have to have max heat then look into an oxy-acetylene torch or an oxy hydrogen torch.  They have no N2 involved in the burner, (and acetylene has a LOT of btus to turn loose!)  For real hot look into an electric arc furnace.

 

Just remember that in blacksmithing too hot is generally WORSE than not hot enough!  (think of it as adding Nitrous to your car---more power right?  Save that you blew the engine and now it doesn't run at all)

[Jerry W.]

Would you be able to generate hydrogen this way at a rate fast enough to make much of a difference?

[Rich Hale]

Let me see if I understand this correctly...You do not wish to spend any of your time nor money on this but ask us to take our time to do the research or draw from our vast wealth of carefully gleaned stores of knowledge and sit and type it for you?

And in typical Iforgeiron fashion many have stepped up and given you some thoughts.

[Rich Hale]

Hopefully that response should move me forward in my apprentice program.

[Keganthewhale]

I am most certainly not asking anyone to go out and do research for me, but I am indeed calling upon the wisdom of those who have more experience than me. I am sure that for myself and for most of the people on IFI knowledge of the craft in most cases is something to be shared not hoarded, and if someone were to have tried it would this not be the place to look? And if it is not found then to ask? And I very well might try it when the means allows, but for the time being, since I do not have the means as of yet I was wondering if anyone either shared my curiosity or had any previous experience or knowledge of it. An what difference does it make for you type something here versus someplace else? You are clearly going to type something somewhere regardless, however you are choosing to waste your time typing up something as useless as chastisement without correction or caution.
However, Thankyou ThomasPowers for explaining to me the reasons behind why is a waste of time.

[Frosty]

Kid: Anything CAN be done so just prove all us old guys wrong and do it yourself. Don't bother actually looking anything up, that's the old fashioned way of learning things.

 

One thought, please let us know when you're going to give it a try, we'll be sure to watch the news.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Keganthewhale]

If/when I try it I will be sure to let the wisdom or error of my ways come forth and share my experience.

[Dale Russell]

As a former traction battery tech ( think eletrice forklift batteries ) i'm horrorfied u'd even think of doin' this .

 

All it would take is a flashback to your batteries & " BOOM " eletroclyte ( sluphric acid ) everywhere , not to mention the effects of the blast .

 

Having experianced a battery 1,000 kg / 2200 lbs EXPLODE  while i was working on it i know the effects of what is possable . Luckly i only recieved a small amount of the electrolyte ( acid ) over me when it exploded , lost my hearing for nearly 2 hrs , blow out 5 office window " 50 ' " away from where i was working & that was only from " 4 " of the 24 cells exploding .

 

There is a reason " why " they tell you not to put a naked flame near a gassing battery ( any battery for that fact ) they EXPLODE

 

Blacksmithing is dangours enough as it is without adding this to the equazion . Unbelieveable what some people will come up with . 

 

 

Dale Russell

[ThomasPowers]

Now there is a reason to add extra gas to a balanced combustion and that is to have it burn rich and so be a reducing environment much sought after by bladesmiths.  OTOH "burning rich" is another term for producing carbon monoxide. The other method of getting this is to choke the air supply.  Some aspirated burners do not deal well with being choked.

[Steve Sells]

Research tells us of Hydrogen embrittlement to steel. This could be a reason few if any use hydrogen as a forge fuel.  in case your research missed that

[ThomasPowers]

Steve; I think that's a misleading answer. Propane has nearly 3 times as many hydrogen atoms as carbon, (C3H8---though we generally see it as a mix of various hydrocarbons), why doesn't it cause problems? Would using water on your coal/coke fire also cause it?

 

What types of steel alloys have trouble with Hydrogen Embrittlement.

 

How do they generally get rid of hydrogen embrittlement?  

[Steve Sells]

Atomic Hydrogen in a free state such as in hydrogen gas, is not the same as hydrogen bound in a compound such as with the propane.

 

Any one working with titanium is aware enough of what hanppens,  but did you know that Hydrogen can enter most metals?  Due to the small size of the hydrogen atom, it can migrate through the metal structure and cause a loss of ductility similar to that experienced in stress corrosion cracking.

 

Hydrogen embrittlement is the severe loss of ductility of a metal when hydrogen has been introduced into the metal structure.  Hydrogen atoms can enter a metal either from hydrogen gas, usually at elevated temperatures, or from atomic hydrogen that is electrolytically formed on its surface.  This hydrogen can either reduce the energy required for forming cracks under stress or can accumulate at areas of high stress, such as crack tips, and cause pressure, which directly assists crack propagation.

 

Ferritic and martensitic steels, particularly those with a yield strength in excess of 130 ksi, are particularly prone to hydrogen embrittlement.

                                              

Hydrogen Embrittelement of Stainless Steel occurs when hydrogen diffuses along the grain boundaries and combines with the carbon, which is alloyed with the iron, to form methane gas.  The methane gas is not mobile and collects in small voids along the grain boundaries where it builds up enormous pressures that initiate cracks.

 

I was hoping to get someone to look it up for themselves,  but oh well, I will include a link for more reading.

 

 

www.corrosionist.com

 

[ThomasPowers]

Water gas is a synthesis gas, containing carbon monoxide and hydrogen. It is a useful product but requires careful handling due to its flammability and the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. The gas is made by passing steam over a red-hot carbon fuel such as coke:

H₂O + C → H₂ + CO (ΔH = +131 kJ/mol)   from wikipedia; but I learned this a long time ago:   So putting water on your coal evolves H2 gas yet we still advise it!   If your burner is well tuned you should not have free hydrogen around in a hydrogen forge.   I think the reason they are not used deals more with the cost of production and supply of H2 than with it's negative consequences.

[Steve Sells]

Very few beginners have the forge running properly, which is also part of the risk they face when experimenting with mixing gasses or anytthing else before they learn what is happening.  My point in posting was to see if the origonal poster would research to find out or, as Rich questioned, wait for us to tell him what to do.

 

Funny about cost for hygrogen fuels,  the physics of thermal dynamiacs is a real problem, a few years ago I had a guy contact me for setting up the power for the "Free Fuels" generator,  I explained the returns will not get him ahead, becuase of electrical cost.  He didn't agree, he only saw the free water thingy, from the salesman pitch no doubt.   

 

I pointed out if he gains as they suggested,  then why not recycle and capture the water vapor from the engine exhaust, and crack that for hydrogen to run his truck... the perpetual motion conflict was beyond his understanding, but I think the cost of the processing unit finally turned him off, but I bet when he found out the cost of licensing for the large storage tanks he wanted might have woke him up also.   never did ask him where was he going to refuel when out of town.

[ThomasPowers]

You can't win.

You can't tie.

You gotta play the game.

 

Basic laws of thermodynamics