Hi All,

 

I didn’t get into blacksmithing because of knives, but for some reason I can’t get them out of my head now so I might as well go with it.

 

I made a really crude knife a couple of months ago as an excuse to practice a couple of different hammering techniques.  That ugly duckling has become one of my favorite kitchen knives even though it has some really serious design flaws.

 

Now I am thinking about making a few more knives for my own use in the kitchen.  I have no delusions of grandeur, and will be happy if I make 20 or 30 knives that get left in the scrap pile just to get the 2 or 3 that I want to use.  After all, this is all about gaining good practice time at the anvil right?

 

One question I have that I don’t see discussed much in the knife making lessons is what shape of stock to start with.  The rookie smith in me really wants to move a lot of metal and is inclined to start with 5/8” round bar and have a good time hammering away for an hour.

 

The engineer and machinist side of me says start with flat stock much closer the desired shape.  Not as much fun, but more practical.

 

Now, I know that some steels are more available as flat stock than round bar, but other than that, is there a reason to choose one over the other?  I see that there are concerns about grain growth at forging heats.  Is that a reason to spend less time hammering?  Maybe nobody talks much about it because it just doesn’t matter?

 

Thanks…

I have plenty of work to do, I dont see any need to add to it by using larger dimentions than I need for the starting stock. I have heard about the real forging vs not-forgin rants.  Remember that all steel we buy starts out as a large block and is rolled/forged down a lot before its in any shape we can buy, so the last 1/4 to even 3 inches of hand forging isnt making much difference in the amount of forging that section of steel has experianced anyway.  Then consider the reset of the grain boundries from the HT process, and there is no real reason left to start with large stock and working it down by hand.

May find something interesting in the knife makin lessons in this forum.

May find something interesting in the knife makin lessons in this forum.

How did I know I was going to see that answer? :)

 

I've spent a lot of hours looking through the knife making lessons, and a big thanks to you and Steve for all the work that went into them.  If you say there is some discussion in there about starting stock, I'll believe you and apologize for bringing it up again.

 

I suspect from Steve's response, it has more to do with why you are making a knife int he first place.  If you have work to do and customer's waiting, why add time to the journey?  If you are making a knife more for the experience than the result, then why not?

 

I also suspect form Steve's response that I may have accidentally stumbled into one of those eternal debates.  That was not my intent.

There was one knife smithing book out there that made a big point about forging down from round as I recall; I didn't keep it as I thought a lot of it pretty bogus from my light MatSci exposure.  I do wounder when people say that forging from 1" to 1/4" is very important and ignore the forging from 5' to 1"...

 

As for grain growth pretty much all modern steels can deal with that through thermal cycling as part of heat treat.  I'd be more worried about decarburization and scale losses.

dont forget arm strain.  I try to work smarter, not add to the effort and make it harder.

There is a current topic about forging an integral bolster from a crowbar, you should have a look.  I like using stock near to the final result, and I have a powerhammer and press to help me.  OTOH, for integrals, you need some extra material.  There is a smith who believes that for a certain steel the multiple thermal cycles needed to forge down from large rounds improves the grain structure of the steel, and he's got some good evidence on his side.  You should do what works for you.

 

Geoff

not hard to thermaly cycle it with out having to waste all the effort either.

dont forget arm strain.  I try to work smarter, not add to the effort and make it harder.

 

Good point.  I don't heal as fast as I did 20 years ago, and I seem to get damaged a lot easier!

I think I am not near the knife maker that some are here so just to throw something in, starting from say round or square rather than say 3/16 x 1 1/2 flat bar is a more natural proportion for forging, it does not want to form the I beam effect. like Steve stated it will likely take longer and be more work, might have the carbon burned out, or it could be better by not forging in stresses, depends on skills, and equipment. This would really only apply to forged items as removing stock would not cause these types of stress.

93 I guess you saw that in the knife making lesson I forged a blade from round..and tried to give some tips that might even make it easier for folks wanting to do that. Moving metal is not a easy task to learn but it certainly was easy enouigh for me to learn. But then i sought out in person help.. The lessons start very basic for those new to forging. But I won't mention them again as it seems to bother you..

Whoa there Mr. Hale, you didn't bother me  a bit.  I simply apologized for making the same mistake that every other new person on here does by asking a question that was listed in the tomes of the knife making lessons.  Perhaps the tone in my reply came off as bad, if so I am sorry.

 

Yes, I saw that the first knife (101) was made from round stock.  Others were made from different materials.  My question wasn't if this was possible,but is round/square preferred over flat stock.  As of yet, I haven't seen any discussion on why one may be better than the other.

Kitchen knives need to be thin.  As such a newbie forging thin makes for difficulties.  Large band saw material or purchase thin steel to grind the blade in.  That will save a lot of headaches.  Just wait until you heat treat it and that blade does the hokey pokey.  :blink: Good luck.

Forging to thin blades is a headache. I have recently got to the point where I can forge a blade from coil spring into a 1.5-2mm thick blade, then a little grinding. That is the easy part, the hard part is making sure it doesn't warp much when hardening. BUT I have worked hard just like others here to get my forging to the level where I hardly need to do any grinding or sanding if I don't want to, just using a 4 pound hammer and old anvil I can get within about a 1mm of desired thickness and need minimal finishing touches to the blade.

a flatter is your friend.

I get people asking me this all the time.  They find a leaf spring or coil spring or tie rod and want to make a knife out of it.  Aside from the problems inherent in mystery metal, all you're really getting from the experience is an hour or more of hammer time.

 

Going from round to flat takes energy.  That energy comes in the form of coal/propane and sweat.  And at the end of your pounding experience...... you end up with a piece of flat stock you could have purchased for less than $20.  Why not start out with the flat stock to begin with?  You haven't saved any time or energy buy using round stock.  You didn't get any closer to the knife that you want to end up with.  There's just no upside to starting from a round bar unless the alloy you want to work with isn't available in flats.

Thanks for all the input. It sounds like the starting shape doesn't necessarily effect the blade, but it makes a lot more sense to start as close to the final form factor as possible.

Other benifits would be things like starting with flat stock would allow me to spend more time practicing hammering bevels without spending all the time drawing out and flattening.

thanks again...

I get people asking me this all the time.  They find a leaf spring or coil spring or tie rod and want to make a knife out of it.  Aside from the problems inherent in mystery metal, all you're really getting from the experience is an hour or more of hammer time.

 

Going from round to flat takes energy.  That energy comes in the form of coal/propane and sweat.  And at the end of your pounding experience...... you end up with a piece of flat stock you could have purchased for less than $20.  Why not start out with the flat stock to begin with?  You haven't saved any time or energy buy using round stock.  You didn't get any closer to the knife that you want to end up with.  There's just no upside to starting from a round bar unless the alloy you want to work with isn't available in flats.

 

for me i find great enjoyment in the hot metal work. it lets me really focus on the task at hand and gets my mind off the stresses of work. i like developing a skill that lets me turn something considered trash into something i can use. with every hammer blow being able to see the minute changes in the metal has some strange satisfying quality to it.