arkie Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I was attempting to make a touchmark the other day. The material I used was from a coil spring that I straightened out. Diameter of the resulting rod was about 3/8". I heated it above critical temperature and cooled it in a bed of ashes to normalize it as much as possible and remove any hardening if any. Afterwards, a file would not scratch it and when I tried to carve my pattern in the end with a Dremel tool and tiny carbide burr, the burr would do nothing but skate across the surface. What would be the best way now to try to carve or engrave my touchmark in the end....diamond point burr or what??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Did you remove all the scale from the steel? Scale the develops from heating steel is incredibly hard. You could grind the tool and reveal clean steel or you can pickle the steel in a light acid. Also if you do not know what grade steel you started with any type of heat treating can be a mystery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 The exterior of the spring steel was wire brushed from the forge to remove scale, an end was cut off flat with a 1/16" cut off wheel on an angle grinder, then the end polished gently with a flap disk. From what I have read and seen, spring steel from coil springs is commonly used to make touchmarks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Hello there, It being coil spring it tends to be very bullet proof in terms of sloppy ( blacksmithy) heat treating. I'd go ahead and give it a soaking heat at about a low yellow / high orange, bury it in ashes and start all over again. Me thinks you'll be surprised at the difference. Take care, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Olivo Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Your cutting might have rehardened the end. I found diamond burrs to be the only thing that touches it even when annealed in the sloppy way. Did you warm up the ashes with a big hot block of steel? Use the burrs with water or they will disappear in a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yep, you didn't anneal it properly or it would be softer, though bear in mind that some alloys are still very hard when fully annealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yep, you didn't anneal it properly or it would be softer, though bear in mind that some alloys are still very hard when fully annealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 After straightening out the coil spring, I did give it a slow, soaking heat (about 10 min. since it was only 3/8" thick) just above critical temp (checked with magnet) then put it in ashes until cool to the touch (not warmed ashes). As for cutting off the tip, I did it quickly and in short steps...the tip never changed to any color like straw or blue...polishing with the flap disk was done in about 1 second bursts, not hot to the touch. Stephen, I think using water with the carbide burr would not be effective with a Dremel; it would immediately spin off any water from the contact area. Were you meaning use water with a diamond burr? Seems like it would spin off any water as well. I'll try going back and repeating annealing it by soaking above critical temp and using ashes and see if that improves it. Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Use a nice thick "helper bar" heated to the same temperature and remember to bury both completely in the ashes---you want it to take *hours* to cool down to ambient temperature to *anneal* it. Normalization is cooling from temp in still air... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 One could also try slicing deeper-try to get beyond the skin hardened by the ash-quench. Or just anneal it as has been suggested. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Use a nice thick "helper bar" heated to the same temperature and remember to bury both completely in the ashes---you want it to take *hours* to cool down to ambient temperature to *anneal* it. Normalization is cooling from temp in still air... Thomas, If the next reheat and re-anneal doesn't work, I'll certainly try the helper bar; thanks for the pointer. That should keep the temp up for a slow cooling period. The first time with ashes (very fine ashes at that) it seemed like the bar cooled in a matter of an hour or two, certainly not the longer time you indicated. Back to the "grind stone" as they say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Olivo Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I have made several and although some water will spin away the surface tension will keep enough water holding onto the piece and holding the shavings. The diamond bits are the only ones of quite a few bits I have tried that worked well enough to use. You can also submerge the punch under water and then use the bit just under the water. Harder to see what your doing though. I have annealed car/truck/other springs and found that although I could file it down only abrasive rotary bits worked on them in the annealed state I was able to get them in the ash with several large bars heated and sunk in first sorounding the ash that the punch blank then went into. Try a bad file on it and see if you can do anything to it. If not then probably not annealed. Lol carbide burs. I tried one once just for giggles on my annealed punch blank for my first one and wore a nice flat spot in it even though I could file the blank. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Perhaps try a second piece of coil spring from a different spring. My coil springs I normalize, and they are no problem to file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Stephen, If the next annealing doesn't work, using hot steel in the ashes, I am going to try a diamond burr. Ridgeway, Right now I only have the 3/8" diameter (straightened) springs and one large truck spring, about 3/4" diameter (straightened). Easier right now with the smaller one, might give the truck spring a try on the next go-round. I can always taper the business end of the touchmark to the size I need. Thanks again for the suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 If the anealling route does not work you might try over tempering, this seems to be the easiest option for me with H-13. Hard to know what you have with found steels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 If the anealling route does not work you might try over tempering, this seems to be the easiest option for me with H-13. Hard to know what you have with found steels. Yeah, I agree. I wish I knew what this particular steel is. I can always use an old punch, heat treat, dress the tip then engrave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davor Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I've made a few knifes from coiled springs, if you temper it to dark yellow and quench it in water it should be soft enough for a file. It works for filing the edge on a knife, I guess it should work for a touchmark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Your steel is hardened...It must be annealed.....trying wot did not work is not likely to change anything. small diameter..and I expect short will not lose its heat slowly like i needs to. Thomas gave you a reat tip..put something in to hold heat.. for instance if you run your hand down into the ashes carefully after 8 hours and you cannot feel heat as you get near the metal,,it cooled too fast... On an edge a file will cut right through any scale and then into the metal,,,if not steel has not been annealed. A carbide bur that dulls fast is a piece of garbage..I have used some of my burs for decades for all kinds of steels and they cut fine...they were not cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Coal or gas forge? I don't think you are soaking it long enough after it reaches critical temp. I usually give it 15 to twenty min. when working with 1/2" spring steel and put it in vermiculite. I think most coil springs are 5160 steel. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Soak times in the charrts..if we know wot the steel is..are usually based on one inch think stock. This small diameter rod will not need to stay at temp long at all. A magnet will tell proper temp..that sucks heat out of the steel,,put it back in heat until it is same color as first time and then straight into the ashes..I prefer vermiculite but dry ashes should work...if they have been in high humidty area they may quench,,,and then they would not act like dry ashes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Soak time is almost immaterial for 3/8" round bar. Thomas nailed it, it isn't close to being annealed because it doesn't have nearly enough mass to anneal itself. It is cooling MUCH too quickly. A good sized bar is likely your best option like Thomas said. A heat treating oven, a potter's kiln, a good woodstove burning a big load of hot coals. Plus like I said, some alloys are still pretty hard fully annealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 I liked the advice of some of you to put a heater bar(s) in the ash along with the rod to keep the heat up. I fully agree that it probably cooled MUCH too fast. Rich, I checked the non-mag color with a magnet, then quickly put it back into the fire to bring it back up to that color before putting in the ash and will repeat that process when I use the heater bar(s) to retard cooling. It may be a couple of days or more before I can get back to forging. My forge is outside my shop surrounded by woods; we have a severe dry spell with high winds and burn bans all over the place at this time. No rain in the forecast for a few days. Not wanting to have a fire going in the forge with those conditions....frustrating!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I personal use vermiculite to cool it is a good insulator and it will hold heat in letting it cool. I heat and get a good saturating heat and just plunge it quickly in the vermiculite forget about wire brushing the scale until it is cool I leave mine over night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Francis, as you and others have suggested, I may try the vermiculite as well as ashes. Ashes are darned messy compared to the vermiculite :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 It was -6 degree's F here this morning. According to Google Arkansas is 40 degrees presently (windchill not withstanding). Seems a mite cold for slow cooling anything small outside. I've annealed similar material in ashes but my experience was in the summer when it was well above 80. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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