How I do my openers...

[billyO]

Good job with the video.  Uh oh, here comes Sally.....

 

 

The only suggestion I'd make would be to move the gas can to the hood of the vehicle... Safety first!

[Black Frog]

BillyO, you are no fun, gotta live a little bit and make in interesting! ;)
Yup, noticed that too, had just got done trimming the lawn.

Even more interesting when I'm doing some grinder work and look over to see a shower of sparks landing near a gas can.... gets your attention.

[mitch4ging]

Rawhide mallet. Hmm.

I never knew they made them and now I need one!

Jim, they are used in leather work, i.e. belts. You can get them at a Tandy's leather, if you have those up there.
Never thought of using one on the anvil though. Great idea!

[Black Frog]

Rawhide mallets are available from most any of the blacksmith supply companies like Blacksmith Depot or Centaur.

[Frosty]

Hardware store! Why pay premium for a "blacksmith's" rawhide mallet when one from a big box store is the same thing. Maybe a different brand but the same tool. Mine is probably 30 years old and I did have to touch it to the belt sander a few years ago to clean up the wear but . . .

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Black Frog]

Frosty- I'm going to have to look closer at my local stores.
I don't recall ever seeing them at any Home Depot, Lowes, Menards, etc... I've seen dead-blow, rubber, fiberglass, white rubber, nylon, and wood hammers/mallets.
I'd be happy if I did find them cheaper though! Thanks for planting the thought for my next trip to the store.
Maybe AK just has cooler hardware stores than we do. ;)

[JimsShip]

I just looked online, but there's nothing at Home Depot or Lowes. :(

[John McPherson]

Burning leather smells like burning hair - yuck. Fine for cold work, finishing jewelry & tinsmithing. 

 

Plain rawhide mallets are sold at Tandy Leather and other craft suppliers. You can even get replacement rawhide face disks for cast iron hammers, along with copper, brass, plastic, etc.  at a real industrial supply house, like Wholesale Tool or Grainger.

 

Wooden mallets do the same job in the forge on hot metal, and are cheap and easy to make. Bonus, they smell like a BBQ when used on hot work.

[Black Frog]

Thanks John, never tried a wood one, I may have to give it a whirl!

As long as I'm not setting the rawhide mallet directly on the hot metal and just use it for tapping/straightening, there hasn't been any burning smell. It is when you press and hold onto hot metal is where the burn becomes obvious. I've used that rawhide mallet a LOT, and it is still in quite decent shape so it may be a while before I get to try something else.

Since I've not used a wood mallet on hot metal, wouldn't the rawhide have a bit more "give" to it than wood?
I love the way the rawhide one works for my intended purposes, but I'm always looking to learn about new stuff!
....and I rarely need an excuse to obtain more tools.

[ausfire]

Black Frog I need one of those slot punches, so I had a look around the scrap pile (sorry, 'resource store') and found a tyre iron that was close to the right dimensions. (It even had Michelin stamped on it with arrows to show which end to mount or dismount the tyre.) It was screaming out to made into a punch so I cut it off at the good length so that the slot is about 5/8 inch. I'm guessing that's close to what you use.
The steel would be reasonably hard, but would I need to do any sort of heat treatment before using it? I gave it a bit of a polish in case tempering is necessary.
Here's a pic of the iron and the punch.

[Black Frog]

Honestly I don't remember if I hardened that punch or not....
It wouldn't hurt to do it. And as long as you keep the tool cool while doing your punching it should last a long time.
I cool my punch every few hits so it doesn't get too hot.

I've not used a thin-bodied punch like you pictured, so I'm not sure how well it will be in use?
I like using round or hex stock for that sort of thing. Gives me a nice big target on top for hammering.

[VaughnT]

A punch needs to be dead soft, Ausfire.  Heat treating the end will only get ruined when you start using it on hot iron. 

[Black Frog]

VT, wouldn't it only get ruined if the working end gets to approaching critical temp?
When I was making some of those punches and tools, I remembered a thread a while ago discussing this very question.
There was talk about whether to harden punches or not. I'm not referring to punches in making hammers which get incredibly hot. Of course if you let your tool sit on or in the hot metal it will get too hot and ruin the temper. I'm meaning tools used on smaller and thinner work, but found these posts made some good points which is why I cool my punches often:
 

I think you misunderstood my post..If you dont let your cutter get above 600* then its never gonna get much softer than 50RC..The material temp being cut dosnt matter, the temp of your tool is what matters..My stamp has hot stamped hundreds of axe heads that were close to 2000* when we stamped them but my stamp is still 59RC in hardness..If you dont overload the termal mass then your tool will never get that hot..You can stamp an axe head holding the stamp on there for a full 2-3 seconds and it wont be more than say 130*(because i can touch it to my skin and its barely warm) but since it takes W-1 more than 450* to get below 59 RC it never looses any hardness..If you keep the tool itself below the temperature for a givin hardness then it will stay hard..If you let it get hot it wont..
Remember, Im talking about keeping the tool cool and not letting it get hot enough to loose hardness..If Im making a tool that I know I have no way of keeping cool then I dont bother..

If you use a tool "as forged" it is actually normalized. If you harden it and then temper it is tougher than a normalized tool. If you get the tool hot while cutting or punching you may draw more temper but you should never leave the tool in contact with hot metal long enough to let it get to critical temperature. Even if heated above the tempering temperature it is tougher than that tool as normalized. Even if you have gotten it so hot that it then normalized when you hardened then tempered it you had refined the grain structure and thereby made a better tool. This information came to me from Robb Gunter. When I talked to him about making knives from half a horseshoe and hardening it in Super Quench Robb told me to temper to 450 degrees to refine the grain structure and make a better knife that would hold the edge longer. My wife carries a Case pocket knife, My carry knife is made from half a horseshoe with a horse head carved for the handle (A-36). I have to sharpen my wife's Case more often than I sharpen my horseshoe knife.

I've never gone back to test any hardness of something I hardened and then used on smaller hot work for a few months.
I suppose I should.... By no means am I any expert at this, I just try to soak up as much info as I can and run with it.

[mitch4ging]

But then you have Brian's reasoning on this...

"brianbrazealblacksmith20 Jun 2012

I don't harden hot cuts, and I don't know why others do. I used to because I assummed it was necessary, but that was a totally incorrect assumption. I can cut 2" and under 4140 in one heat with a hand hammer with a hot cut made out of the same material and so can anyone else if they have the right tools. I will harden and temper hand chisels, fullers, and punches that I use to lay out cold material like you would with a center punch, but there is no reason or need for haredening and tempering punches and chisels that you do hot work with, and you would only lose the temper when doing large work. If you are going to cut cold then you need to heat treat. I would like to hear some reasons why others would harden such a tool and not just the same old excuse that I had of doing what I thought I had to do or what I was told to do."


Maybe another good debate...?

[VaughnT]

Honestly, Frog, I don't know the particulars of metallurgy and what dictates loss of temper.  Here's a photo of my kit from the other day.  The opener's design requires a square hole through the stock, which you can see is less than a 1/4" thick.  

 

Punching out the slugs, the punch got a bit stuck and by the time I got it out and into the water can, it had discolored.  If I had done this to a knife, folks would be saying that I ruined the temper of the knife.  

 

The punch was made from medium-carbon utility pole guy anchor, normalized and not hardened or tempered.  In its softened state, it goes right through the hot metal and there's no chance of spalling off a chip from either end.  What would I gain from going through a heat treat process to harden the working end when the soft end works, obviously, just as well?

 

 

Does the discoloration mean that I would have ruined the temper of the piece?  I've always assumed so, but I could be wrong.

[Black Frog]

Yup, I see that point too. Which is why I know my punch works and don't remember if I attempted to hardened it or not.
Either way if it was hardened or not, my punch works fine.

I guess it goes back to KYBOY's point about the thermal mass of the tool, and how hot that tool gets in the metal.
I've never hardened my tab tool or my fullering tools I use for my feather openers, and they seem to be holding up fine.
I spent some time with Brian and definitely see his point on hot cuts and things like that with thin edges that will get real hot real fast, there's no point in hardening them. But I guess I'm wondering at what point might it not be the worst idea to harden punches?

Like my tab tool punch, it is fairly large and has a decent sized thermal mass there. I don't let it sit on the metal too long, and it is never IN the metal, would that be a good thing to harden for longevity's sake?

That's why I ask these questions and get different thoughts on the subject going.
If you did harden a punch, what would be the temperature the tool tip needs to be at where you start losing the hardness?
And if you did lose 'some' hardness, would it still be a better tool that lasts longer than one that never was hardened to begin with?

[mitch4ging]

"And if you did lose 'some' hardness, would it still be a better tool that lasts longer than one that never was hardened to begin with?"

That has confused me as well. I did not harden mine, but do you get more longevity out of the tool if you do? Would you need to re-do the harden/temper after a while?

[VaughnT]

I guess it goes back to KYBOY's point about the thermal mass of the tool, and how hot that tool gets in the metal.
I've never hardened my tab tool or my fullering tools I use for my feather openers, and they seem to be holding up fine.
I spent some time with Brian and definitely see his point on hot cuts and things like that with thin edges that will get real hot real fast, there's no point in hardening them. But I guess I'm wondering at what point might it not be the worst idea to harden punches?

That's why I ask these questions and get different thoughts on the subject going.
If you did harden a punch, what would be the temperature the tool tip needs to be at where you start losing the hardness?
And if you did lose 'some' hardness, would it still be a better tool that lasts longer than one that never was hardened to begin with?

I think a lot has to do with the alloy you're using and how it handles high temperatures.  Steel is a fairly poor conductor of heat, so the heat at the tip of the punch isn't going to be quickly radiated to the rest of the tool, thus preventing the tip from overheating.  Instead, the majority of the heat will stay very localized.  My punch's tip changed colors after getting stuck in some red-hot iron that's only around 3/16" thick.  It was only in the hot metal for maybe 20 seconds, and it has a pretty thick cross section.  That it would change colors right there at the contact point shows that the rest of the tool wasn't wicking away the heat to keep the tip cool.

 

Then you have to worry about worrying too much.  Can we possibly quantify the various levels of goodness in a punch or chisel?  Is it good enough to work for the next dozen years, hardened or not?  We're blacksmiths, not some NASA types that need to know the quantum structure of the dylithium crystals in the reactor core.  If it's working for you, go for it. :D

[Black Frog]

Hey, I'm trying to launch the space shuttle here outta my garage! :)
....that's the anal part of the engineer and machinist in me wondering and asking questions like this.

I agree VT, as we say in the band, "...close enough for rock-n-roll!"
I think that applies here as well.

[Frosty]

That can be really hard to do Froggy. Saying good enough, DONE is tough for a machinist or machinist's kid. I really had to TRY not to build our house with a micrometer. The builder who kept me from screwing it up worse than I did couldn't believe ANYBODY would put a roof on that was within 1/64th any way you wanted to check square. The roofer loved it but . . .

 

Beautiful openers and thanks for the how to's. I've been following, I have a demo to do the 21st. and I have a terrible tendency to start large projects and demos are not the place for long involved projects. Start to finish in under 15 minutes seems to be the sweet spot. folk get to watch raw or scrounged steel turn into something else before they get bored.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JimsShip]

This probably should be asked in another section, but since the subject has been brought up i'll ask it here.

I mostly make small items (candle holders, keyrings and such) and after brushing or filing, i'd heat them a bit to allow the beeswax to coat nicely and then let them set to cool on their own.

Should I be tempering or hardening or something else? I haven't made a blade yet (on the long list!) which I know will need to be treated, but for general stuff like this is there a another step I should be taking?

[Black Frog]

Only thing that needs to be hardened is something you want to remain hard, depending on the application and use.
Blades, cold working tools, hammers, anvils, etc...

For any sort of decorative items that don't have a specific need for being hardened, there's no reason to do it.
General mild steel doesn't have enough carbon in it anyway.

[VaughnT]

Jim, mild steel doesn't have the carbon content to harden like a knife blade does.  As Frog mentioned, general doodads wouldn't benefit from a heat-treat process.

 

I can say, though, that a dinner triangle that's been quenched in water will have a far nicer ring than when that hasn't.  I don't know what's going on in there, but the resonance change is noticeable to me.

 

Engineers and Machinists are a special kind of insane.  There's no way I could last a week with all that mathematics flying around!

[JimsShip]

Yeah the math is a bit beyond me as well.

I read some of the stickies on treatments and when they start talking molecular structures or grades os steel my mind starts to drift...

I work basically with scrap I scavenge, and spark testing only works if you know what your looking at (THAT would be an extremely helpful video if anyone has time!)
 

I just asked because I wasn't sure if I made a bottle opener say, out of a horseshoe, if I should be treating it to strengthen the tab or something.

 

[Black Frog]

Nope, not necessary.
The only reason I play with the heat, torches and tempering is to get colors on the opener.
Has nothing to do with strengthening or hardening.
Purely cosmetic window dressing. :)


And by the way, the above is what happens when you try to "re-stamp" that intricate frog skeleton stamp.
This was when I was learning when the best temp range for stamping is. It got too cool, and I wasn't happy with the depth of the stamp.
Extremely hard to get it perfectly lined up on the second try with that much stamp surface area and intricate detail, and you end up with a double stamp, a blurry frog.
More basic stamps without so much detail wouldn't have as hard of a time for re-stamping.

Several nicely forged openers got screwed up with the learning curve of using that stamp.
Sometimes not deep enough, sometimes it was a bit on an angle and parts of the stamp didn't transfer.... I've only had a few that were successfully re-stamped.
The double-frog stamped ones got sold at scratch and dent sale pricing. ;)

You get one attempt with the frog stamp, it's gotta be a good whack at the right temp range, but I've become decent at it now.