Joe Davidson Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Hi guys, I'm hoping to purchase some steel from a local steel supplies. How ever there are so many types of steel out there that someone like me, who is quite new to every thing that I don't know where to start. So my question is what would you recommend to someone for sizes and types of steel and all that sort of stuff for making tongs and tools? Also they sell 3mm black form sheeting, which I'm thinking on using for a forge table, with a brake drum set into it. Does that sound alright? I am stepping into this for the first time so any help would be much appreciated and I don't want to make a fool of myself :), although that is the best way to learn some times. I thought that if I bought it I'd just make it easier knowing what I'm working with rather then it being a mystery. Thanks Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Buy a piece of round stock 3/4" in diameter. From that you can make a couple sets of tongs without having tongs to begin with. There are lots of ideas in the stickies at the top of the various pages. Read through them and then decide what you have to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Davidson Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Okay cheers, I'll give that a crack I'll be sure to have another read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Don't be afraid to make mistakes and check your supplier for cut-offs. My forge table is made from angle iron which in a former life was a BBQ pit. I just have a sheet of 16 gauge on top to keep the coal from falling on the ground. For me functionality trumps appearance, my forge looks ugly, but I love it! You can see what I mean in this thread. '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Davidson Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'll give that a crack first then sounds like a good idea :) If it works then it does its job and that looks like it sure works. I'm hoping for something similar Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Starting out you will probably want to use "hot rolled mild steel" which will probably be A-36 in reality. In general you want the cheapest stuff they have, I often ask if they have any "damaged" pieces selling at a discount. Don't know about down under but here they sell steel in a 20 foot stick (~6m?) and charge to cut it dow to size---so I take my 30" hacksaw and do my own cutting to fit it in my vehicle (I cut it into lengths I commonly use or multiples of those lengths) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorsHammer82 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 The cheapest way to get steel is to either get drops. Basically the stuff that's left over after someone else has used up most of the useable length of a given "stick" (full length). Or buy a full stick. Stick lengths will vary between the different sizes/shapes of metal you're buying. some come in 20' some in 24' and some in other lengths. You can ask about price per inch, price per foot, and price per stick. they all very. The larger the thickness, the higher the cut cost. Basically they are charging you for the time of the cut/the wear and tear on the saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Some of the fancier tongs are made from medium carbon steel so they can be lighter and still strong. However there are a lot more ways to fail using MC; which is why I suggested mild steel (and pretty much all the *old* ones were low carbon wrought iron anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Davidson Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 @ Thomas, Or in fact any one I was looking at steel grade comparison charts and could find one that fitted A -36 for an Australian steel. Looking at the chart that I found would any off the others do a similar job. That is if the chart has any relevance to the topic at all... The amount of steels availed is pretty overwhelming for me, but I would love to be able to know what I'm working with, so it's good quality. Then when mistakes come it will be because of me and not the steel, so I can't blame the steel. Though knowing me I probably still will :) but I'll know it was something I did and have to think over what it was Thanks again guys for taking the time out to answer all of my questions. I will certainly ask if they have any of cuts lying around that they don't what. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorsHammer82 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Joe, If a mistake happens, it's always your fault. The steel is inaniment, It cannot do something to be at fault. Either you used the wrong tool, the wrong temp, the wrong technique, the wrong amount of force, or the wrong angle for that given piece of steel. Saying it was the steels fault is like saying it's the cars fault for a drunk driver. or the guns fault for a shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Unfortunately you can get steel that's been mis-labled or has flaws in it due to manufacturing defects; this of course is your fault as you would have been possible for the steel mill running a piped ingot. Sorry doesn't hold true in all cases. As for A-36; it what we generally get when we go in and ask for "cheap hot rolled mild steel". It's most important spec is that it's yield point is 36K psi which is around 248 MPa so that is what I'd be looking for along with "as cheap as possible" A better material for tongs is sucker rod, the rod used for "donkey engine" oil well pumps. It's usually a medium carbon and as it's replaced and scrapped on a regular basis it shows up for re-use fairly regularly in the oil producing states of the USA. One of the problems with higher carbon tongs is that if they get overheated, (especially a problem in a gas forge), and quenched to cool them they can harden and so be brittle as glass---the next hammer strike on the work piece will often cause them to self destruct. Why lower carbon steel is a good starter material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 A-36, like rebar isn't a steel type (ie 10xx) it's an engeniring spec. It can be anything that meets that spec. So sometimes it will be mild steel, other times it will be bordering on medium. As long as it meets spec. The comparison chart looks like its comparing the engineering spec. For different construction grades. I don't know how y'all in Oz define the composition. In the us it's with the 10xx. We're the first two numbers is the alloy (10 being plane old Fe) and the second set being points of carbon (don't remember off hand if its .1 or.01% bit I think it's the latter) then there are some other steels that are defined by the maker or other standards, like H13, S7, O1. Gets confusing and I have to go look it up. Some of the others know it all by heart, but that's not me. I think there's a tutorial around here some where that covers it but my GoogleFoo isn't all that strong. Yes Tommas, you have walked me threw Google sight search, and I still have to go back and refresh my memory as to how you said to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 American A36 is listed about half way between Australian 200 and 250 on the chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 A36 is rather a crap shoot as to what it may be from piece to piece. 1018 has some specifications and standards to it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahoo2 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Hi Joe, perhaps I can give you a couple of pointers on steel. the American A36 and Australian 250 are basic codes for hot rolled structural steels and are by and large pretty useless to a blacksmith or machinist as a guide to what it is. unless you are looking for some angle iron or c section to build with. A = ferrous 36 = 36000psi minimum tensile strength = 250 Mpa it kind of a generic for "mild steel" somewhere between 16 and 25 points of carbon with some manganese tossed in to improve the workability. (1% carbon is 100 points) as a blacksmith you are mainly looking for square and round bar (and flat bar if you make blades). round is available in all grades and sizes, square can be pretty hard to find if you are after a specific size or grade but it saves time, effort and fuel on some jobs to start off with a square section. the quickest and best way to get your head around grades of steel is to use the AISI or SAE four number system as the benchmark for everything, that way when somebody says "spring steel" you are mentally comparing it to a 5160 as a 1% chrome steel or if I tell you that most structural steel in Australian shops in will be "300" you are thinking around 1045. Dave Smucker has done a brilliant little guide called steels useful for tools it's a great starting point, print it out, keep it handy and pencil in your own notes on the differences between the various steelmakers products of the same grade as you come across them. offcuts are where you find them, the latest round of shop safety audits mean that some businesses are prevented from handling and cutting anything but full lengths of steel but they may be able to point you in the direction of the scrap dealer that buys their offcuts in bulk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Joe Just get some 20mm A300 or A250 what ever they stock, most of the run of the mill steel suppliers around Australia would not know a 5160 from a XK1345 or an En36A from a 17crnimo6. If you want to get special steels try Atlas, interlloy, Global or Bohler. Other than that most of the time you just need "mild steel" to start with to muck around and have a go with. If you ask for imperial sizes you will likely be sold bright shaft which is more expensive than mild and not what you want. Aus steel are metric as standard. Normally 6 8 10 13 14 16 20 22 24 27 30 33 36 40 dia are the standard sizes for round bar. Have fun Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Davidson Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Thanks for all the replies I feel like I am getting my head around this steel business. I think I will go with what you have recommended forgemaster, hoping to ring the supplies on Monday. @yahoo, that's for taking the time to explain the differences between American and Australian steel grades. Thanks for that link too, very helpful. Definitely going to save to favourites and print out a copy :) Thanks again for all the help guys, very much appriecated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 to prove Thomas' point, take a piece of A36 and drill it with a new bit. In some places, A36 drills easily, in other places on the same bar of steel, the drill bit has a harder time cutting. The quality control on A36 is not very good...............that is why, for mild steel applications, I use 1018 Interesting that you mentioned that. I always thought it was my cutoff wheels. The other day, I was cutting some 1" square stock for hardie tools using an angle grinder and cutoff wheels. One cut went fast, then further down the bar, the cuts took nearly twice as long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Joe as you learn and grow in blacksmithing you will learn lots about steel. There no mistakes just opportunities to learn. I have a pile of rebar and with the Gunther quench it makes some great punches. I have had other that was garbage. You can not go wrong. Keep hammering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Francis, the rebar I've Ben getting in my neck of the woods gets way to brittle with just water. I use it mostly for fence building and landscape spikes, but hay I have forge so I have to point and head it right? I do use it for disposable tooling once and a wile and hay, it has a cool texture so I waist time with it some times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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