Post Vice Jaws

[Damastang]

HI guys,

 

I was just wondering if post vice jaws are generally hardened? I have a vice I have been using for a while however one of the jaws has a bit of a sag on top. I have been planning to fill it with weld to build it back up but am a little concerned the jaws are hardened.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Frosty]

No, post vise jaws were typically wrought or mild steel. Most of the time any sway (dip?) in the jaw tops is the result of file work on things held in it. Sometimes it can be hammer damage but that isn't hard to identify. Post vises were designed and built to be tough as anvils and many took serious work from sledge hammers to files, chisels, heavy bending and twisting, whatever a smith needed to do to a piece held in it.

 

I wouldn't fill a sway, dip, etc. unless it's effecting the vise's function. If it's bad enough it won't hold the work it's time to start thinking about repairing it. If you need a crisp edge make slip in jaws. (ARGH, I can't remember the right name! Stupid TREE!) For general slip in jaw covers I just cut pieces of angle iron the width of the vise jaws and use them to line the vise jaws.

 

Slip in jaw liners is a trick used to make it so a vise won't mar softer metal projects and it works in any kind of vise.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Damastang]

Great idea frosty, might do that instead for sharp edges and soft metals. It's not really affecting the function of the vise hence why I have not done anything about it already, just looks ugly lol.

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

Cheers

[Timothy Miller]

I disagree with frosty.  Most Leg vices have hardened steel jaws.  Though the jaws often get softened by exposure to hot iron over the years.  I have built up jaws with weld before without any problems.  As manufactured most Leg vice jaws are supposed  crisp square with serrations on the faces of the jaws.  It would not have been out of the skill set of your run of the mill blacksmith to reshape and reharden the jaws of a vice to get it back into good working order.  I my self have done it on an old worn wrought iron vice.  I use copper vice jaw caps to protect fine work for getting messed up by the vice jaws.

[ThomasPowers]

I do not know if I would use the term *most*.  As the vices were made from wrought iron and then mild steel any hardened jaws should be visible as a forge welded in face to the jaw.  Of the 20 or 30 I have owned over the years I can remember only 2 with such jaw faces.

[Timothy Miller]

I do not know if I would use the term *most*.  As the vices were made from wrought iron and then mild steel any hardened jaws should be visible as a forge welded in face to the jaw.  Of the 20 or 30 I have owned over the years I can remember only 2 with such jaw faces.

I have owned about 20 I can never remember one with wrought iron jaws or soft steel jaws.  I did a quick inventory around the shop.  I did a visual inspection and a file test on all of my vices

 

7" Fisher chain vise cast iron body with cast in steel jaws

Two unknown American style forged wrought iron 6" leg vices both vices weld lines visible at the jaw and file test as hard.

4" Peter Wright forged wrought iron vise seem visible on underside of jaw jaw file tests as hard.

5" Peter Wright forged wrought iron vise seem visible on underside of jaw jaw file tests as hard.

4" 18th century style with tenon mounting plate forged wrought iron vise seem visible on underside of jaw jaw file tests as hard.

3 forged clamp on table vices 3" Hiller and sons? 2.5 H.R. Boker and unmarked 2" all file test as hard and show a line at the jaw were steel was welded to the wrought iron body

5" Foster English forged wrought iron body with steel jaws.  This vice has one of steel jaws come off when I was straightening out the the jaw I re-welded it to the vice body and rehardned the steel jaw after cutting in new teeth into the jaw.

4-1/2" Colombian drop forged file tests as hard steel has clear weld line at underside of the jaw.  

Not one of my vices has soft jaws I could spark test them and post a video on line if you don't believe me. 

[ianinsa]

Wow, Timothy that was a really agressive vibe in your reply . Is that a NY thing? Whilst I concur with you on the hard jaw aspect as in it's "harder" than the vise body.

 

I  do'nt think you need to be so "defensive" about it. Besides in this case "Hard" is very subjective, I would guess that you could cut into the jaws of most  if not all of your vises with a hacksaw. That's a common thing with vices, try the same with a HSS drill bit. Besides the spark test(here we go again) does not tell you how "hard" material is.

 

Ian

[Timothy Miller]

I have over and over posted information on this site that is baised on my own personal experince of 20 years of being a professional smith that I experinced with my own eyes and hands.  Only to have people far less experince under their belts respond by saying black is white.  I have spent many hours tring to provide good solid information to people who want it.  Call me fed up not defensive it also may be a NY thing we like a good verbal sparing match many people from other places dont understand its not personal.

 

 I tested the jaws of my vices with a file they vaired from glass hard to somewhat difficult to file.   Most of the wrought iron vices are faced with older types of steel like blister steel shear steel and cast steel.  This stuff can be very hard but it is also prone to soft spots and chipping.  Some vice jaws have been anealed by contact with hot steel though they did not start out soft.  I don't think you could have cut very far with a saw or drill on a fresh out of the box wrought iron leg vise with steel jaws. 

[MLMartin]

Mr Miller I would certainly back up your statement. With English leg vices the only ones I have seen without steel jaws are "New" vices that are made entirely from steel. I have seen a hand full of Colombian leg vices that would probably date to mid 1900s that are die forged from solid steel. But out of the hundreds I have seen in the USA most are older wrought iron vices with welded steel jaws. 

 

I actually think it is odd that I have only seen two vices that clearly had the steel jaw break off. I have seen a great number of anvils with part of the steel plate broken off. I guess vices are just not hammered on as hard.

 

 

PS 

I have repaired some vices that were badly damaged in the jaws from gas cutting. I have just cleaned the area well then mig welded the missing area to build up material then ground it back to the original jaw shape. I only did this repair because the vice screw and the vice body were in good shape but when the jaws were closed tight you could fit a 1/4 inch rod in between the gap in the middle of the jaws where material had been torched away. I am sure my welding would have softened the surrounding steel but I imagine the torch cutting had already done that for me.

 

I would only weld on a vice jaw with the damage was affecting the reasonable use of the tool, small file and saw cuts pose little trouble 

[silkhopesmith]

I have to strongly agree with Tim also. Every hand forged wrought iron vise I have examined (probably 300 vises in my lifetime) had steel jaws welded in.   the only vises I have seen without steel jaws added are the relatively newer ones that are not wrought iron and not hand forged.  these newer vises are drop forged or cast solid steel. Interestingly, I also own a drop forged vise with welded in steel jaws.

[ThomasPowers]

I'll see if I can take a look at mine this weekend and of course will defer to Frank Turley's opinion on the soft vs hard jaws.  Wish I had some acid handy to do an etch across them to hunt for a transition. (shop is currently 3 hours away from where I work my day job, sigh)

[MLMartin]

Many of my vices have very clean welds for the jaws. I can only see the steel on some of them by looking under the jaw were the weld line is still obvious. Also there is normally a iron patch under the bend of the jaw, I guess to reinforce the area.

.

[ThomasPowers]

A lot of my vices are probably columbians plain legs, simple screwboxes, No markings---save the one marked 100  and it weighs that.  I do not see signs of forged welded jaws on them.  Some of the other beveled leg vices do show a colour change near the jaw face.  In general none of the faces feel very hard to a file

 

Note my oldest and smallest post vise does show welded faces; but they are less than 1/8" thick---almost paper thin in places-3" jaws and Mr Turley examined it and said he thought it predated 1800!  I still use it but *gingerly"

[Harri]

In Die Kunstschlosserei from 1908 it is said that the steel jaws have to be tempered before use.(Page 98) becase they vere delivered glasshard.

[Bob S]

I have over and over posted information on this site that is baised on my own personal experince of 20 years of being a professional smith that I experinced with my own eyes and hands.  Only to have people far less experince under their belts respond by saying black is white.  I have spent many hours tring to provide good solid information to people who want it.  Call me fed up not defensive it also may be a NY thing we like a good verbal sparing match many people from other places dont understand its not personal.

 

 

 

 

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so.

Will Rogers

[ThomasPowers]

I've only been smithing 32 years myself....including a year working fulltime for a professional swordmaker back in the early 1980's.  Whhich is why I defer to Frank Turley who is a SME on post vises.