Which files to shapen / finish

[Eddie Mullins]

I'd llike to buy some good qulaity files, I'll need to order them, and have been able to deduce that Nicholson's are of reportedly good quality, but I'm now trying to determine which pattern or type to get. I've tried to search this out, and kind find lots of info on making a knife out of a file, but not which type(s) of files for shaping, finishing and sharpening blades. I should note I don't have a belt sander, but am planning to build a 2 x 72 down the road, for now I need other methods, hince the files. I'm thinking I'll need a few from coarse to fine... but would rather not just start blindly ordering.  

 

Any suggestions on size, pattern, etc?

[Timothy Miller]

I often buy used files at yard sales then send them to bogg's tool in CA for resharpening.  They charge about a $1.50 per file.  At most I pay a buck each for a file often a lot less.  I have found a bunch of different patterns and cuts of files this way for about a third of the price of new. 

[Dan C]

I'll be interested to see the responses on this one.  I'd like to be able to buy quality tools and steel, but at this point anything I earn from smithing goes into the 55 Chevy truck I'm restoring or paying bills.  What I've done is pickup old files from garage sales, craig's list or flea markets.  Many of them are still useable, and those that are not I've started turning into knives to sell. 

 

I am starting to gather materials to build my own 2x72 http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf but until that happens I've been using a cheap HF 1x30 belt grinder and promoting the "primitive" look on my blades.  These two file knives are the first ones that I've spent anytime trying to polish, which was done by hand.  The top blade is for my Dad on Father's day, the bottom one is sold.

 

 

Future knives I'm going to try to follow these steps using the tools I have.

 

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[bigfootnampa]

I have found that Pferd files will outcut and outlast Nicholson files by a WIDE margin!  I rarely buy any new files now though because like Timothy I have gathered at least a lifetime supply from flea markets and antique stores.  I sharpen my own though in vinegar.  I get many that are essentially new, unused files!  The ones that I resharpen are nearly as good as new!

[Steve Sells]

to add I have bought some tiny diamond files new, but most I get from yard sales,  I grab them all at  a bulk price,   I just ask how much for all your files,  a few times they went to a box I didnt see and got more.  pay less than $1 each that way.

 

if you want a list for starting out,  A rough flat file for removing hammer marks, 2 med course and 2 fine flat file. Two each of these because the files you use for copper alloys should never be used for steel also.  (gumming problems)  And starting at course filing then moving into fine stuff  smooths out the courser marks from filing.

 

Get a few bastard files  they are flat on one side and curved on the other, and at least one round file, then other shapes like triangle,  and odd sizes even tiny jewelers files can be nice for getting guards and bolsters to fit tight.

 

While you are looking make sure you have a few with teeth on the short sides (edges) of some,  as well as a few files with NO teeth on a side,  the "no teeth: file sections are nice for getting close to a corner without the edges teeth cutting the blade up when filing a solder joint flat.   The no tooth section is riding cleaning against the other edge at the junction of blade and bolster for example.  while you will sometimes want teeth files in a small area for tight work. I may sound complex but the easiest way is grab all you see at the garage sales until ya have a box filled,  them sort them and keep the clean. files can wear out, so ya have back ups to finish a project, rather than stop to clean the file now. 

 

Even with me owning a Bader B3  2 x72 grinder, my files are still the best tool for getting a nice surface, and cleaning up solder joints.  one can always hand sand at the end after using the finest files to get a polish, but the grinder is only getting as good a finish as the operator talent allows, a faster stock remover process equals faster mistakes also. My list order is off the top of my head on what I use more than the others.

[Rich Hale]

^{Did your research include loooking in the knife makin lesson on this site? i spoke about files in it including pictures of the files I used to complete the demonstration knife.}

 

^{In addition I showed an easy way to hold a blade for filing.}

 

^{Not in  those lessons is my thoughts about file brands i use alot ,,Grobet is a wonderful file, I get them from a knife making supplier. not bad prices,,,I keep all of  my files in a drawer and do not let them bang around with each other,,they are cutting tools and can be dulled. You need a file card,,also covered in the lessons.}

 

^{Grobet files are sold by at least one of the suppliers listed in the associated files with those lessons.}

[Frosty]

From my high school metal shop classes this is the order of filing we learned. First the file. Long wide files are best for defining area, in the case of a knife say bevels on a double edged blade and or tips like on a Tanto. These are generally double cut file. If you think of a file like a wide saw with close shallow teeth you have the general picture. They cut in ONE direction just like a saw. Look at the file there are three basic types of flats, double cut, single cut (draw) and rasp.

 

The roughest forming can be done hot with a rasp, horse shoe rasps too dull for hooves work nicely for hot rasping steel. but leave deeper scores. A score is a cut left in the stock, a scratch usually caused by a damaged tooth or chips caught in the teeth.

 

The next step is a coarse double cut. A double cut has teeth rows slanting back towards the tang leaning left and right making a cross cut. Cross cuts remove steel faster and leave smaller scoring. You can then change out to a medium cross cut, then to a fine cross cut.

 

Lastly are draw files. Draw files have teeth running a single direction usually they are right handed, looking at the face the rows slant tip to tang from left to right. You can push file with a single cut or draw file which is turn the file sideways and push it perpendicular to the direction you're filing. Being a right hand draw file the handle goes in your right hand. If you find yourself with a left hand draw fil the teeth will slant right to left and the handle will go in your left hand to draw file with it. Left hand draw files are unusual but not unheard of.

 

That's the basics, start coarse and work to finest. You'll know when it's time to change grade when the old score marks are cleaned up and new finer score marks form. Gross marks, say hammer marks and such dings are the meat of coarser grades and not what I mean by change indicators.

 

Probably the MOST important thing for do good file work is clean your files as you work. First and most often performed is the handle bounce. Turn your file tip up and give it a sharp rap down on the handle, this will knock out the larger chips that will cause chip scoring. When you're draw filing this is a thing to do every few strokes, say five or so. Then is the all important file card, it's a really short bristle wire brush used to remove the fine chips galling the file's teeth. Stroke the file card with little pressure in the same direction at the teeth away from the direction of cut. single cut right hand draw file's teeth run tip to tang, left to right so the file card stroke tang to tip right to left at the same angle as the teeth rows.

 

Carding a double cut is done with short back and forth strokes like brushing your teeth but really short strokes, less than 1/4" strokes. Light pressure, pushing hard on a wire brush is a bad thing, they don't do their job well and it bends the bristles and wears the brush out quickly, hand brush, power brush, any and all.

 

No point in getting carried away, usually half a dozen strokes to maybe 20 if it's galled. After a while you'll be able to feel when the file is clean by how the card reacts. As a practice exercise lay a sheet of white paper on the bench, card the file a few strokes paying attention to how it feels then give it the handle bump on the white paper and not how many chips land on the paper. No, don't count them, just not how many get bumped out. and LOOK at the teeth, if your eyes are better than mine you can see little galling chips pretty easily.

 

Another important rule for finish filing. Do NOT touch the work OR the file's face! skin oils are persistent and lubricate the teeth making the teeth skate doing less cutting on a fine surface. Skin oils are also kind of sticky so it helps fine galling ships stick in the teeth.

 

Steve's list of useful files, types and sizes is pretty much the same as mine from big wide double cut bastards down to fine draw files, half rounds, rounds, round and triangular rat tails and jewelers files. I use them all occasionally. Then there are the super handy specialty files, my favorite is a "Thread file", these are used to clean buggered up male threads. They're square files with a different tpi count on each face and my GOOD thread file has four more TPI counts going the other direction. that is the only specialty file I've bought intentionally though I have more I picked up at garage sales, auctions, etc. I do use my die maker's riffle files (riffles) now and then, they're a really big category, hundreds maybe thousands of the things. There are key maker's files, watch makers files, darned near any trade that needs to smooth or shape metal has specialty files.

 

Okay, I'm drifting off into long ago memories. Our very first Jr. high school metal shop, hands on metal and tools, project was a hand made, 12" scale. (steel ruler) We were given a piece of 1"x1/8" high carbon steel and used the files in our drawers to reduce it to a proper steel scale thickness and were graded on the finish and consistency of thickness. Hand filed (riffled) inch and fraction marks the stamped numbers were done before final filing to prevent warping the scale. At 50inutes a school day it took most of us a good week to finish our scale. I gave mine to Dad and it lived in his tool box till he died.

 

Then, our first high school metal shop project was a pair of dice. THAT was a PITA hard to get them as identical as possible but it took about three days. A long wide surface like the scale is much easier to keep even than something only 5/8" wide and long. Talk about an exercise in control!

 

I don't know anybody up here that sharpens files and I haven't tried vinegar but I have used dilute sulfuric acid to good effect.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Eddie Mullins]

^{Did your research include loooking in the knife makin lesson on this site? i spoke about files in it including pictures of the files I used to complete the demonstration knife.}

 

^{In addition I showed an easy way to hold a blade for filing.}

 

^{Not in  those lessons is my thoughts about file brands i use alot ,,Grobet is a wonderful file, I get them fr3om a knife making supplier. not bad prices,,,I keep all of  my files in a drawer and do not lete them bang around with each other,,they are cutting tools and can be dulled. You need a file card,,also covered in the lessons.}

 

^{Grobet files are sold by at least one of the suppliers listed in the associated files with those lessons.}

 

I did -  "one is A farriers file the other a double cut rather fine file"  . I was just looking for a little more info.

I have tried to read pretty much every thread from the classes.

[Eddie Mullins]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I have more than enough info to get me going.

 

What I find a little funny is in another thread I actually indicated I was going to do just what  was recommended to me here – buying used files from flea markets etc, and I was told not to do that and buy good ones LOL .

[Frosty]

I forgot one IMPORTANT bit of file lore. Store them so they do not touch each other! It dulls heck out of them, dings them so they leave ugly unnecessary score marks, it's generally BAD file practice. Wrapping them in a rag or paper is good. A dedicated file block like a knife block is good but hanging them on a magnetic strip is BAD it makes the chips stick and scores heck out of your work.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Steve Sells]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I have more than enough info to get me going.

 

What I find a little funny is in another thread I actually indicated I was going to do just what  was recommended to me here – buying used files from flea markets etc, and I was told not to do that and buy good ones LOL .

 

actually its not a contradiction, I get some good files from the garage sales.  The useless files, I use as scrap metal for apprentices to ruin, I pay less than $1 each for the box full of files, if maybe half are still good files after cleaning, I still came out ahead.

:D

[John B]

 

I forgot one IMPORTANT bit of file lore. Store them so they do not touch each other! It dulls heck out of them, dings them so they leave ugly unnecessary score marks, it's generally BAD file practice. Wrapping them in a rag or paper is good. A dedicated file block like a knife block is good but hanging them on a magnetic strip is BAD it makes the chips stick and scores heck out of your work.
 
Frosty The Lucky.

 
Another important omission is the use of chalk to help prevent pinning in the teeth

[Eddie Mullins]

Thanks guys. Lots of good info, and most of it is all new to me. I may as well confess, I had heard the term draw filing, but didn’t really know what it was til I did some reading.  Soooo much to learn, and I'm enjoying all of it, problem is I got started 25 yrs too late : ).

[Steve Sells]

Never too late, Uri Hofi was no spring chicken when he first began,  now he is known and respected all over the world as a first rate master smith.

[bigfootnampa]

I have to agree that the Grobet files are EXCELLENT!  They can be a bit pricey and I only rarely get one on the used market... but they are very good!

[Frosty]

 
 
Another important omission is the use of chalk to help prevent pinning in the teeth

 

YES, chalk! Thank you John.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Eddie Mullins]

I'll get to practice soon. Started with a 4"x3/4"x3/8" pc of leaf over spring, 1/3 cut off the pc in the pics. Knife is as forged, should have enough stock left to shape up nicely.

[rockstar.esq]

On the chalk tip, buy kids sidewalk chalk  It comes in larger diameters. Mine has polka dots!

 

I didn't see it mentioned so I'll throw in using a wide black magic marker to see high and low spots.

 

I've found that simply marking the entire flat surface with ink tells me right quick when I'm out of kilter.  Be sure to re-ink the surfaces any time you move in relation to the work.  Many times I've tried to "improve" a spot by approaching from a different side only to create a dip because I wasn't level.

 

Longer files work better for planing surfaces flat.  I can feel if I'm tipping the file up or down better if the file is significantly longer than the work-piece.  

 

I've had good results with Nicholson files but then again, the local stores only stock them and no-name import stuff.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

 

A secret I bought at an Auction (a NWBA Blacksmith Auction) is the best tool for cleaning files.

 

Take a rifle brass (empty cartridge), pinch the open end (where the projectile would sit) about 3/8" down (I use a vice, Post vice, bench vice, Vice vice).

Find a round shape piece of wood, plastic, leather, stick, anything for a handle. Drill a shallow hole (+/- 1/2") for the base of the shell, so it is a tight fit.

Tap the handle onto the shell casing. Done! Finished!!

Stroke the shell at about a 15-20 degree angle, up and down the file, the garbage magically jumps out. If something is still sticky, use the pinched end, like a knife blade in the file teeth to flick out what is stuck in the file.

Stroke from both sides of the shell casing, it will create an always sharp end like a two sided chisel (cold chisel??)

 

Absolutely simple, hurts nothing, sits in your file drawer.

 

Neil