FredW Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 deleted multiple post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredW Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Southern Illinois University offers blacksmithing but only to post graduate students in art. That could also be a place to start. I found an article about a couple in Rural Missouri Magazine that a little discussion about it. http://www.ruralmissouri.org/05pages/05Marchblacksmith.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 In Florida we are trying to set up a standard. One of the questions I asked the group working on the project is " is it about filling the classes or setting a standard". In cooking to reach Master Chef it is about the drive, skill, and Years of work. You are tested in all styles of food and judged on your body of work over a 10 day period. The problem I have with that system is it is subjective in review of your work by the judges and personal likes and dislikes play a part in the out come. With a standard you know what level you have to reach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredW Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Maybe this will be helpful, http://www.edexcel.com/migrationdocuments/BTEC%20Nationals/316844_BN018451_NACD_i_n_Blacksmithing_and_Metalworking_L3.pdf This is from a company in the U.K. Lot to read but may give some ideas. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted May 13, 2013 Author Share Posted May 13, 2013 Just to muddy the water a little I think the main or true value of a cert. would end up being that the person who applied themselves to get it would end up learniing more if it were a good program than the person who did not think it was of any value. This seems to be what has happened in the farrier trade. People will push themselves it is a pride thing. a poor program will not end with as much pushing and then the whole program will suffer by being discredited. YES!!! And how can anybody master a lever from rank apprenticeship to master if the is not some sort of process to follow..... And I did not tell anybody to "shut" up... My comment was if you do not have anything positive to offer, why even comment.... Blacksmithing may be dieing trade, but there is much to be learned by someone that has never worked in this field...I'm 68 years old and never got past high school... But never have I shunned the learning process, and it just seems to me there should be some some sort of recognition to insure you know how to crawl before you try to walk... IF it were as easy and unimportant as some people think ..OK I'm a Master Blacksmith.... It's up to you to prove my "credentials" are bogus... IF there is not any need to have a "skills" requirement along the way, then any group like ABANA or CBA are just another "old boys" club and they is not much point in joining other than bragging rights about as important to the rest of world as "I belong the Lane Rats Bowling Team"... And If I probably will never attend one of their events, whats the point in joining.... Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Dale- There is a curriculum of sorts in the form of Mark Aspery's books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted May 13, 2013 Author Share Posted May 13, 2013 Dale- There is a curriculum of sorts in the form of Mark Aspery's books. This helps.... Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 that was going to be my next comment as well, Aspery has a detailed set of step by step projects and tooling to make said projects which include a materials list, tools required, techniques involved and criteria for judging success. many of these projects are directly corelated with the CBA level 1 curriculum, so much so that Mark's book is considered (at least at the school i am attending) to be the textbook for the course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 While I'm master of my shop, I've never claimed to be a master blacksmith. Better than journeyman advanced before the accident, yes. I'm self taught till fairly recently, the guys I hooked up with in the mid 90's didn't show me much. Anyway, the subject of Master, has been pretty well beaten to death, there are too many definitions of the term for it to have much meaning. I'm all in favor of a nationally recognized standard classification system. someone paying to learn a skill should indeed have a set of skills on the curriculum or that can't be a valid contract. If you want, I'll see if I can find my curriculum. Bearing in mind it was intended for two purposes: #1, Home schooled kids can get financial aid for a course if it's legitimate. #2. This gives the student a set of study subjects and goals. Lastly bear in mind I am THE instructor, I judge progress, special attention needs, etc. making the curriculum more of a guideline rather than anything hard and fast. I've only given it to 3 students, One Lindsey went from here with the basic skills sets she learned and her utility sheath knife I messed up in the quench and ended up the blacksmith in a historic smithy. I don't charge beyond maybe Deb putting them to work around the place in exchange or maybe helping clean the shop or stack wood, etc. I do it because I enjoy it. the people who stick with me for more than one or two times do it because they WANT to. DANG! 'm rambling again. Short story, I'd love to see a nationally recognized standard of skill levels and will contribute what I can. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I don't have any problem with some sort of national standard being set for the various levels of ability. Knife-makers have been doing it for years, and folks that have their "Master stamp" are very happy to have earned it. There are even collectors that won't buy anything except what's made by a "master". How could that hurt anyone in the blacksmithing field? More to the point, if you don't want to go through the bother of getting your journeyman or master stamp from the knife-maker's guild, that's no problem and nobody thinks less of you for it. There are countless bladesmiths turning out truly spectacular work without it. Would I ask a non-certified smith to build me a gate? Absolutely. The quality of your work is apparent and adding a stamp to it isn't going to make it better. What curriculum should there be? Why not take it straight from the old books you can find on line? Learn how to make simple tools (nothing that might require a striker) and then learn how to use those tools to make stuff. The quality of the stuff should be judged as no journeyman would be accepted if the appearance wasn't as pleasing as the piece was functional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 WELL.... Look what came up in another post/thread....... http://www.abana.org/resources/education/chf.shtml This is pretty close to what I am trying to find or accomplish...... Could a lot of these "lessons" be uses as a accreditation program.... Just when some say its over or concept is not needed or a reality.... A new chapter has begun.... Think I will be downloading a lot of these documents..... Also ... http://www.abana.org/resources/education/journeyman/index.shtml Master resource page.... http://www.abana.org/resources/education/index.shtml Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gor Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Dale, Gor: you seem to think hand forged work is an industrial trade needing some kind of certification to ply, like a doctor or certified mechanic, or certified welder, or. . . blacksmithing hasn't been that level commercial trade for at least 50 years, WWII pretty much ended that era of industrial life. If you really feel you need a certification to be a blacksmith, write the curriculum you wish to learn and find someone to teach it to you. You'll probably have to pay said individual but that's part of certification, it costs. Being certified also kind of ends the whole hobby thing too doesn't it? I'm not saying you're wrong to look for such but you're being pretty abrupt when someone renders an opinion you don't like. Actually telling them to shut up and go away. that gentleman has been what you wish you had a certificate for and been good at it for some number of years without complaining about . . . Nevermind. This isn't worthy of getting upset about on any score. Frosty The Lucky. I wasn't trying to be abrupt at all. I was merely trying to propose some scenarios where some form of certification might be useful. That's all. I know that blacksmithing isn't an industrial trade anymore, but it is still taught at certain trade schools. It is also taught by individuals on this site. I'm just saying that I would personally be very leery of anyone that advertised the ability to teach me a skill or craft an item for me at my expense if said person did not have some sort of certification or examples of their work. I've heard so much about Brian Brazeal and Frank Turley, among others, that I would happily pay to take lessons from them. Had I never heard those names, though, I would have to see something that would prove to me that the lessons would be worth the cost. Also, as has already been said, I'm more interested in the idea of a standard curriculum than anything. Several people have written different books with their idea of a curriculum included, but those can vary widely from author to author. I have read some that barely mention forge welding at all, while others go into great detail on it, for example. I know it may seem to be...overly formalized, for lack of a better term, but there are some people that learn better in that type of environment. There's just as much art as there is science in what we do. You can't really teach the art part of it, but you can teach the mechanics and let the student find their own art. I guess I'm rambling now.... Main thing is, I don't want anyone to think I was being insulting. I just happen to be really good at playing Devil's Advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I shouldn't've lumped both of you together in one reply, not fair to either of you. Sometimes I get cranky,no excuse but I do. I was a little ticked at telling someone to say constructive or not say anything. Not the exact words but it's telling someone to shut up however it's said. And the recipient hasn't been back and he's a gifted experienced smith who's generous to a fault, time and materials generous. It just ticked me off and I let that spill out. Anyway, I agree. I'd like to see nationally standardized ranking. Folk wanting to learn and willing to pay deserve to know what they're getting, quality and kind. Accreditation for the buying public? I don't think they know or care enough to make it pay. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOC Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Go do this course; https://www.tafensw.edu.au/howex/servlet/Course?Command=GetCourse&CourseNo=9282 I'd vouch for it. Or run a successful blacksmithin business... AndrewOC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I just happen to be really good at playing Devil's Advocate. Or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Andrew, that is a nice Industrial Blacksmith course, for someone who is already working in an industrial setting. It is heavily loaded towards welding and machining. We have similar learning tracks in the Millwright, Sheet Metal and Carpenter Unions here. But it is totally lacking in details and projects that show specific skills. We are trying to get a similar Ornamental Iron certificate added to our state community college system Welding degree program. And if we could prove that it went along with a nationally recognized training system, so much the better. (Hello ABANA - want to reach the younger crowd? Get this stuff into the colleges!) What Dale and I are talking about is a detailed, step-by-step short term course, with the student projects to develop specific skills. IE: draw out, taper, twist, split & rivet - a candle extinguisher**. ( **The bell shape on a handle for putting out candles. A candle snuffer is a scissors looking thingy for trimming the wicks without putting out the flame. Hence the term "snuffed out" for a premature or unexpected demise. Use the right terminology or the mob-capped docents will descend on you. <_< ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gor Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Or not I expressed an opinion and then explained that opinion. I did not tell anyone to put up or shut up. When my post was questioned, I further elaborated. Is that not the way reasonable adults are supposed to have a discussion? I don't know if you're trying to be funny or not, sarcasm doesn't translate well into plain text. That's one of the reasons why I go out of my way to try and explain my meaning. I'll just stay out of this conversation from here on out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted May 16, 2013 Author Share Posted May 16, 2013 Go do this course; https://www.tafensw.edu.au/howex/servlet/Course?Command=GetCourse&CourseNo=9282 I'd vouch for it. Or run a successful blacksmithin business... AndrewOC Think Australia is a little far to commute, but good concept.... Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted May 16, 2013 Author Share Posted May 16, 2013 I expressed an opinion and then explained that opinion. I did not tell anyone to put up or shut up. When my post was questioned, I further elaborated. Is that not the way reasonable adults are supposed to have a discussion? I don't know if you're trying to be funny or not, sarcasm doesn't translate well into plain text. That's one of the reasons why I go out of my way to try and explain my meaning. I'll just stay out of this conversation from here on out. Frosty is miffed at me ( re : the put up or shut remark) because I told someone that if they were happy in their own little world to not bother posting if comments were negative towards others ideas and subject matter, my only interest is for myself and others trying to expand their worlds... Or something to that sort (see original post for accuracy)... IF person chooses not to come back, its his/her decision not the decision of the collective....Its his/her loss for not being able to contribute/benefit, not ours, we will just find the information another way it just may take a little longer.... Seems each day something new is added, that is what this is all about... Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkhopesmith Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 in my opinion, the discussion so far has missed the most important point, and what I believe is at the heart of any "certification" program. That is- how stringently is the test piece(s) judged? to me it makes no sense to come up with a list of projects if there is no judging criteria: what dimensional tolerances are allowed, what tools are allowed, how much time is allowed? if you don't have these, you have no real assessment of skill. Even a simple item can be a good test if judged carefully. a cube for example. made to + or - 1/16 inch is a whole different test than +or- 0.001. if made with only files a whole different test than with a mill. peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 solkhopesmith in blacksmithing I like how Joseph Moxon described a blacksmith's rule it is marked in inches, 1/2 inches, 1/4 inch and on the rare occasion 1/2 quarters. You are right there should be a standard we all strive for. On the same hand a judges personal feeling should not come into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 Having sometime judge is the product of having a curriculum complete with instructions, techniques and sketches (with dimensions) for one to complete.... Having something to judge, first we must have a curriculum/specification... IF we can establish a program, all the rest will come in the natural order of things..... Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 I've realized I have a personal interest in a curriculum. The only bearing my interest has is on myself and as it applies to me. There are plenty of classes out there that advertise themselves as intermediate, advance, beginners. Without some form of standard it is up to the individual to rank themselves. Thus a person who is advanced may judge themselves as intermediate and find themselves in a beginning/intermediate class, or one who really should be focusing on the fundamentals finds themselves way behind in a intermediate or advanced class. All due from mistakenly judging themself at a different skill then how the instructor would rank them. With a curriculum (for those who desire it only) it would allow one to quickly figure out where they stand and take steps to aquire the skills for the more advanced stuff. In the end everything is made up of processes and the individual elements brought together to form a whole. But if you have nothing to set your personal standard against you end up not knowing what you don't know. Again this is my thoughts as they apply to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 Having sometime judge is the product of having a curriculum complete with instructions, techniques and sketches (with dimensions) for one to complete.... Having something to judge, first we must have a curriculum/specification... IF we can establish a program, all the rest will come in the natural order of things..... Dale Should read: "something to judge".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkhopesmith Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 in order to establish a curriculum you should to identify which skills you want to teach (and test) and what level of skill you are aiming for. peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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