Treadle Hammer Question

[wd&mlteach]

I decided to go ahead and manufacture a treadle hammer.  I have a copy Marx Gade plans to start off with and modify as needed. One of the modifications I think I need, is to make the swign pivot adjustable.  It seems to make sense to me to be able to change the head height durng the swing as needed. But as I have never actually used one of these hammers, I realy do not know how vital it is.  If I were going to change the head height, what is a cheap source for a gear rack and pinion?

[Glenn]

auto junk yard?

[swedefiddle]

Simple Hand boat winch, mounted at the top. Mounting points for swing arms on a piece of (square) tubing over the main beam. secure with LARGE wing nuts (12"??) or bolts threaded into main beam. You decide what you have available. :)

 

Neil

[wd&mlteach]

Thanks for the suggestions. Even though I teach design it is sometimes hard to think a different way.

[Frosty]

I know a couple folk who have designed and built treadle hammers with adjustable hammer heights. The "Grass hopper" by Bruce Freeman being the name I can pull from memory right now. Adjustability makes sense but I've never known anyone who tried it on the fly.

 

I think you may be running afoul of the old trap of designing features before you know what you need or even want. It's a normal trait for folk who build, especially at first.

 

I'd build a treadle hammer, THEN make modifications once I knew what it'd do and not do.

 

Frosty the Lucky.

[doc]

On the Clay Spencer ( original design ) he used a piece of bicycle chain welded to the column and an old sprocket as a gear. The gear is connected to a hand crank. Simple solution to a backyard rack and pinion from a former NASA engineer.

[JNewman]

Do you need to make the head adjustable?    What do you plan on using the treadle hammer for? I never found a treadle hammer was any better for drawing out than a hand hammer.  They are very useful for hand held top tooling like chisels and small spring swages and maybe guillotine tools.  For any of those uses you don't need adjustability for head height.  To lessen the arc use longer arms.  Look at the hammer Larry recently posted. 

[wd&mlteach]

The bike chain idea it fantastic and might be my option. As far as what I am using it for, we'll I do not know, as I have never used one. I have watched a bit at a few hammer ins and i can see their advantages and limitations. As pointed out they are great for hand style tooling and that is where I know I will start.

I do not have the tools at home to modify or redesign anything. As a result, it ought to be finished, tested and working before it goes there. That is my motivation for adding the adjustable head height and removable tooling. Thanks for the ideas and the recommendations.

[Francis Trez Cole]

after using a few different designs I like the in line treadle hammer best no adjustment needed

[knots]

Have a look at this one that I built about 20 years ago.  Basically the geometry was based on the ABANA design with changes to allow quick change tooling .  To I used two angles back to back for the rear frame .  This feature provided a way channel for the head assembly to be adjustable up and down to accommodate different tooling height requirements.  It was also demountable for easy moving.   Follow the link below which has pictures.

 

The head was raised or lowered using a VW jack which was mounted to the frame and moveable head pivot assembly ( not shown on the thumbnails because it was being reassembled from a move when the pictures were taken).  I don't have plans other the ABANZ plans but could take more pictures if desired.

 

So far as the benefits of the adjustable head  -  That depends how often and how many different operations, and tool heights/lengths that you will use.   I use mine primarily  with a set of quick change butcher tools most of the time so do not change the adjustment often for hand work.   It is however nice to have the flexibility.

 

http://www.metalartistforum.com/maf/index.php?/topic/6533-treadle-hammer-prepared-for-quick-change-tooling/

[wd&mlteach]

Nice design variation, thanks for the input.  I like the simplicity of the angle supports and I already have that in stock.  Certainly an option worth pondering and an avenue that I most likely would not have explored.

 

I noticed you have a what looks like a double stack of 3/4 plywood as a mounting plate. How does taht hold up? Or was that just there for the move?

[knots]

I noticed you have a what looks like a double stack of 3/4 plywood as a mounting plate. How does taht hold up? Or was that just there for the move ?

 

The hammer was disassembled for the move.

 

In my old shop the treadle hammer was located on a brick floor that was set in a sand bed.  After a couple of days the hammer anvil started driving the bricks down so I placed a  16" square of 1/4"steel plate below the anvil.  I used it that way for many years.     My new shop is pretty tight (space challenged) with all of the stuff that I have so I need to be able to move the TH.  I mounted it on two layers of 3/4" plywood laminated and screwed together to allow use of pipe rollers to move it when needed.   The plywood will out last me.

 

If you look closely you will see that both the anvil and Ram have a removable strike plate.  This allows changing the strike plate out for tooling mounted in either or both.  Being able to raise and lower the treadle ram gives a bit of adjustment from front to back for alinement/registration of tooling when set both in top and bottom.   Just another advantage of the moveable head feature.

[trying-it]

after using a few different designs I like the in line treadle hammer best no adjustment needed

I have to agree with Francis.
I too tried the rest in the past then built my own using the inline design.
I use 8" combo dies on mine as the hammer head weight is 165 lbs.

Stan

Link to a pic of mine....

http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/19042-100-0155/

[wd&mlteach]

I have to say that I originally chose the Marx Gade plans for simplicity. Now that I am thinking more about it the in-line may be the way to go if one were to want it adjustable.  Unfortunately, I have have the springs sitting here in front of me for the swing style.  Had I exhuasted the resources here before my investment, the choice may have been different. Thanks for your input. when i build my power hammer next year, I will look here first.

 

Knots, do you have any wiggle from oyur upright angles when the hammer hits?  Would it be better to make the upright out of square tube? 

[knots]

The doubled  angle upright column is rock solid.  I will say this about the inline concept :   Since the ram runs secure in a guide way there are fewer moving parts inclose proximity of the operator in case something breaks.  I think that it has always been a concern with the old parallel arm machines that the ram could end up in your lap if something were to come loose.

[wd&mlteach]

Based on the information I gathered here and my plans, I have started my hammer build. I have the rear tower, the head, and the anvil pillar made. I have decided to go ahead and make the pivot point for the parallel swing arms adjustable. For those of you that have this type of hammer, how much vertical travel is needed/used for the pivot point or slide with this type of hammer? Exploring my options, I have contemplated the use of a hydraulic jack to raise and lower the pivot slide and swing arm assembly. The slide has been inspired by knots, thanks for that suggestion. Here is a quick sketch of what I am looking at.

[knots]

Looks like you are on your way. I am sure that you will find other features to build into your TH as you build. Below are thumbnails of how I handled the linkage adjustment Issues that comes with a sliding head assembly:



Adjustable Spring and Strike Linkages



Removable Bottom Strike Plate



Hinged Necking Butcher & TH Ram/Tup Top Strike Plate Attachment Method

Removable strike plates On both Anvil and Tup allow top and bottom tools to be fixed to either or both. Front to back registration can be adjusted by raising or lowering the head assembly.

One other thing - Take note of the safety restraint strap between the two Parallel Arms . If any part of the swinging assembly were to come loose, theoretically the strap would keep the ram more or less in line and out of you face, or lap depending which end turned loose. The ram on my TH is about 55 pounds so it is a good idea to have a safety back-up feature built in.

[wd&mlteach]

Thanks for the additional photos. I have pondering the question of removable tooling myself and your photos help. Did you make a drilling jig so that all of the tooling posts match the recieving holes?  I could see case hardening a driling jig for marking where the posts need to be drilled. Also, thanks for sticking the hex wrench in there. I figured that is what you were using but that wrench made it pretty clear.

 

I will also include the safety strap as a face full of hammer is no good.

[Bob S]

I built my t hammer using Clay's plans more or less. here is my up/down. that said after a short while you will realize that if you made your tooling all about the same length you could avoid up/down. not that it's that hard but it does take time and some effort. if I was doing it over I wouldn't bother with making the ram adjustable.

 

if all tooling is made the same length and you don't need to adjust there isn't any advantage to the so called 'in line' design. with the swing arm style you get a nice slap hit.

 

[knots]

I agree with the use of uniform tooling, and I don't use the head height adjustment often.  However it sue is nice to occasionally be able to set the head down if a days worth of light blows are needed as in lineing or chasing.   And yes the paralell arm T Hammers deliver a powerful and accurate blow.  Both machine concepts get the job done.

 

The jig was pretty simple .   Made from a plate that was the size of the anvil block.  Just aline the edges and Get the holes started.  The only trick is that unless the holes in the jig are placed precisely the plate will have a top and bottom.  That is that you drill the  anvil with one side dowwn the drill the fixtrue plate from the other side . That way if there is an ecentricity in the jig holes that ecentricity will be consistent with the fixture and anvil plate so tha t the edges aline. I held my jig in place with magnets.  

 

The jig plate was then modified by the addition of the 1/2" angle stop for a standard, but smaller jig plate for most other tooling.

 

 

 

There is another thing thatyou should consider.  I have seen demonstrations with hand held tooling below the ram.   JMO - That is not a good idea.   Consider making a special light tong to hold tooling  while keeping your hand out of harm's way.  

 

 

 

Another way that is a favorite of mine is to reforge the jaws of a long nosed locking plier with a similar looped jaw .  In use this takes a lot of strain off of the hand.  Tong rein rings would do the same as would a set of wire handled tools.

 

 

 

 

 

[knots]

Hey Teach

 

After the above exchange I got to thinking about another project that has been on my back burner for a while.  It suddenly occurred to me that the back side of the adjustable TH frame could be put to use.   You are apparently one of a rare breed, I understand from your postings and images that you are a shop teacher, it occurred to me that this would be of particular interest to you.  

 

The idea is to use the back side of your TH frame as the foundation for a planishing hammer,  The adjustability built into the frame is ideal for that application.  I am currently sorting through my stock to see what materials I have to build my own version.  I already have an old pneumatic scaler in a drawer some where so my first task is to figure out the configuration of the frame arms and their mounting detail.   

 

There are many examples of owner built machines but I like Mac's basic design and will use my scaler hammer as his ZIPMAX did.   Thanks Mac.   Currently I am looking at using a small hydraulic jack to raise and lower the anvil base.   The main advantage to me is that adding the additional function to my TH will help preserve space in my crowded shop.

 

In your case the doubled channel would provide  the foundation for a robust unit.  

[wd&mlteach]

Knots, that is a great idea. However, I barely have enough room to fit the treadle hammer in my shed as designed. If I add a planishing hammer to the back or side of the collumn I would be out of room. My smithy is a single car garage and it packed right now. I do want you to know that I did think about your suggestion for a very long time today. I know it is not a Planishing hammer but I even got a small air hammer out just to think about it some more. Even after that I still came up with the same conclusion of not utilizing your suggestion.

Here is what I have done so far, it has been slow going these days with a new baby that does not sleep between 12-3:30am, a wife who just had a c-section -housework is all mine, finishing my masters thesis, figuring out how to get six copies of 337 pages printed and bound, graduating, a birthday party for my other son, staying after school with kids working everyday becasue the school years is just about done, and as you pointed out teaching full time as well. By the way thanks for noticing my rarity. Technology Education formerly know as shop teachers are rare and finding some that are interested in and teach a bit of blacksmithing are even more rare.

Anyway here is what I have accomplished lately. I will be adding an adjustment to the slide mounted on the channel. I have a weldable sprocket I just need to find about 24" of roller chain to weld on the channel. The farm supply shop that I go to has it in stock, just in 10' lengths. I do not need that much. I also need to decide whether the whole thing should be welded together or not. Welding is faster than drilling and tapping all of those holes, but being able to take it apart is a big plus.

[knots]

Sounds like you are a busy guy. Hang in there. Things will level out . Family, education ( yours and theirs), and blacksmithing are worth the effort.

So far as the Planishing Hammer Idea is concerned, the idea is there, maybe a future need will arise.

Looks like good progress is being made on the hammer. The total weight of my hammer ram/head is around 55 pounds. In order to achieve that I ballasted it with molten lead . I have heard of others who have used lead shot to achieve something like a dead blow strike. Are you planing adding weight ? One thing that I can say about mine is that it delivers a heavy blow, and the good thing about the weight is that the return springs do most of the work managing the weight. That is to say that it swings easily on the down stroke so there is only an upside benifit to additional weight.

I would like to hear form others, who have built a Treaddle Hammer, how they ballasted theirs or even if not.

One other thing - Take a look at the top front edge of my hammer head. I welded a 1 1/2" round bar to the front edge of my TH ram. This adds extra weight, but the real reason it is there is to use as a handle. This feature is especially handy if you have and use tooling fixtures such as Butchers . If you have a free hand It can be used to add power to the down stroke.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings WD,

 

Nice build...  If you need some chain visit your local motorcycle shop.   Normally the guys have some used chain and sprockets available.

 

 

Keep your paddle in the water       Jim

[Frosty]

Nice looking bit of fabrication WD. Why not add a planisher? It won't take up any more floor space than this will but forget about hanging something off the back of the frame. Make an attachment system for the hammer and anvil, then you can put whatever you like on it. For instance a pneumatic planishing hammer on the ram and whatever shape anvil you like on the anvil. Change bits in the pneumatic hammer and you'll be power chasing hot steel in no time. Repousse and chased pieces out of 1/4" steel plate? Oooh cool!

 

The hammer will need  pretty fine control for the treadle or it'll kill the pneumatic hammer but that's no problem an adjustable stop is easy. A little slack and you can do fie control with your foot or a hand lever.

 

Frosty The Lucky.