Wrist and arm pain

[Smiddyt]

I bought a forge from a neighbor about 2 months ago. I joined Balcones Forge a local group of blacksmiths that meet once a month. I have been playing around and have made some BBQ forks, and meat turners, lots of bottle openers, and some chisels used for the bottle openers. My problem is I get pain in my wrist and forearm if I hammer for more than a couple of hours. I am sure it is the way I am hammering so I ordered a hofi style hammer and the video to try and learn better technique. They have not arrived yet but any ideas while I wait?

Thanks
Smiddy

[Clif]

Smiddy,
How high is your anvil face? Should be about knuckle high.

[oakwoodironworks]

I have seen the Hofi video and he has a lot of good ideas. I, too, have problems with my hammer wrist. I think it is mostly from getting older!! Don't know how you hold your hammer, but have found a more relaxed grip helps me.

[Smiddyt]

I will check again (my forge floor is hard packed sand) but when I first set it up it was knuckle high when holding my hammer.

[Trip]

^{Smiddy,
How high is your anvil face? Should be about knuckle high.}

I disagree with that Clif.
The reason being is because at that height you will "snap" your elbow, shoulder, and wrist joints. I know this to be true because when I first started smithing, I had my anvil set at that height, and I would get a sharp stabbing pain in my for arm and wrist after only a few hours.

Your anvil should be set at a height so that you elbow is slightly bent when the face of your hammer is sitting on the face do your anvil.

Trip

[dablacksmith]

ok my question is this ... do you do anything else using those mussles? if you are not normally using those mussles then you need to build up to a long forge day .

[Smiddyt]

I work in a office and use a computer alot. So no I dont use those muscles much.

[Jerry W.]

Troy,
Come see us in Marble Falls on the 15th. We will be at the shop of William Bastas and he is going to forge a small anvil. This will be a great meeting and demo. There will be many experienced smiths present and they may be able to help you with your issues. Hope to see you there,
Jerry

[dbrandow]

For what (little) its worth, I would diagnose that as you gripping the hammer too tightly. You need to hold the hammer fairly loosely. As they say, someone should, theoretically, be able to grab the hammer out of your hands mid-swing. If you hold it loosely, it'll be able to snap back up. If you have a death-grip on it, all that rebounding force will be absorbed by your arm. Your arm muscles can handle that, but your elbow and wrist in particular aren't designed for that. Relax your grip and you should be fine. At the risk of starting another flame war, you may also want to move your thumb from the top of the hammer to the side.

[ThomasPowers]

Also check that the hammer handle is not too fat for your hand. You should be able to grip it easily without your fingers stretching. Remember hammer handles are not sold "perfectly shaped for you". They are sold "sorta OK for a bunch of people" and then *YOU* should modify them to suit yourself!

Also I like a terminal bulb on the hammer handle so it can be held so loosely that it actually slides in my hand while going up and down and the bulb makes sure it doesn't slide out.

[Jack Evers]

Adjustable anvil stands are impractical but I think ideal anvil height can move up or down with the work and the tools used.Fifty years ago when I was a farrier doing all cold shoeing my anvil was higher. I wasn't hitting anything more than an inch above the face. As I moved into hot work and had punches and drifts, etc that were 8 or 10 inches or more long in order to keep my hand above the hot steel, my anvil got lowered and is now at knuckle height. Sounds like much of your present work is near the anvil face and a somewhat "high" anvil wouldn't be terrible, might even help. Another consideration is to keep shoulder, wrist, hammer and elbow in line. Don't let the hammer head move in to where you're twisting your wrist and forearm and moving the elbow out to strike.

[Fe-Wood]

I have been playing with anvil height lately and found the best way for me to determine "my comfortable height" is to take my favorite hammer and do a mock swing with all the wrist and arm motion as natural as possible ( no uncomfortable angles) and see how the hammer face lands on the anvil. If the tip of the hammer face hits first, the anvil is to low. Keep in mind the "average" stock thickness you will work and adjust for that as well.

I stumbled upon this while I was setting up a new anvil. It is about an 1" taller than the one that used to be on the stand. That added 1" was WAY more comfortable.

Previously, I had used the Knuckle hight rule with bent elbow

[Alec.S]

Short answer on helping your arm - Pick up a heavier hammer and learn how to relax with it.
When hammering, you will hurt yourself if you are not relaxed!

alec

[EWCTool]

In my opinion, there are many reasons for the pain. As stated above it is most likely that you are jumping in all out trying to swing a hammer all day which might be too much for your body to handle. But because you can’t forge all day now does not mean you can build into it and get there in the future. The advice posted above is good, if it works for you. The main point is that there is no clear answer. I hate reading this myself, but you have to find what works for you.

The way you swing the hammer will come with practice, just as running form comes from running hundreds of miles (the running example is because I run for my college). The way you hold the hammer depends on the anatomy of your hand. I have known smiths with small hands and they prefer smaller handles. I have large hands and like larger handles. The grip of the handle is something to consider, but yet again it depends on what you are doing and your anatomy. I have a very tight grip when I am hammering large stock with a heavy hammer (a loose grip would not control the hammer sufficiently), while at the same time I use a loose grip for more delicate procedures.

As for the anvil height, again it depends on your style and anatomy. The knuckle height rule is an average. I have heard that it is because at that height the hammer face is parallel to the anvil face resulting in even forging. While this may be true, the wrist can account for that difference, if this is damaging to the wrist it is unknown to me. It is average because the lower extreme would be a striker’s anvil which is more on the knee level, and the upper extreme is the jeweler’s anvil about chest height. I am about 6' 4", but have the arms and torso of a 6' 6" man. I like the anvil height closer to wrist height than knuckle height. When I work at anvils of knuckle height I tend to bend over to see the metal, not because my eyes are bad but because I am just so far away from the anvil face. Wrist height works for me.

In the past when I have had wrist pain it was usually caused by jumping right back into forging after months off being at college combined with using an oversized hammer. I noticed that it came when I was catching the hammer after it had rebound from the anvil, because of the weight I could not utilize the momentum to lift the hammer. I recovered by using a lighter hammer and really utilizing the rebound from the anvil.

The best advice I have is to experiment. I started by placing the anvil on a chunk of wood and putting cinder blocks under it. The anvil was light so it was not a big deal to move and the cinder blocks could be easily moved to adjust the height. This type of stand would not hold up against daily use, but serves the purpose. The other advice is to use other shop's anvils. They will most likely have a different height than your set up. Be patient and don't be afraid to try something new. Research is never a bad thing.

I will end with my thoughts of the Hofi hammer and technique. I believe it to be a brilliant marketing scheme. But in my opinion I do not like the way his hammer is designed or used. I do believe it to work well for him, but I do not want to buy a hammer that is well over $100 and designed to be used for pretty light stock. I think it works for him and what he does with the hammer, but it would not work for me. I just have a problem buying a hammer from a man who uses power hammers and presses for most of the large work. I still respect the man, and enjoy his work and believe him to be a very successful blacksmith. Just my opinion.

As for helping with the pain, the best thing you can do is rest. Rest heals most injuries. I had a strained hamstring that lingered for 8 months and ruined my entire indoor and outdoor sophomore track season. That summer I finally just gave my hamstring a break and took about a month off from running. That is all it took. Any good physical therapist will all give the same advice no matter what the injury, ease into it. Don’t bite off more than you can chew, or else you will wind up in the same hole where you currently sit.

[Smiddyt]

Jerry, I will be there on the 15th but want to get some Christmas gifts made so I can mail them out. I worked at the forge for about 4 hours on sunday and had to put heat and ice on my wrist for the rest of the day. I will check to see if I am gripping to tight next time.

[thingmaker3]

Have you consulted a physician?

[Smiddyt]

Thanks for all the advice. I will give it another couple days to rest then try again.

[HWooldridge]

Some years ago, I spent some time playing with extreme anvil heights - both high and low - just to see what felt best. In that case, the upper side of "high" was about even with my pecs and low was about mid-thigh. Both extremes were uncomfortable but I was still able to work for a while without hurting the quality of the work so I believe there is a definite range where everyone is most comfortable but it's not something measured to a tolerance of 1/4" or less. I presently keep my anvil set higher than fist height to keep me from leaning over. As the others have stated, let your arm and wrist heal but also remember to keep everything stretched and supple. It's just good health practice regardless of whether you stand at an anvil or work at a computer.

[Randy]

It's probably the way you hold your hammer and how you swing it. Don't put your thumb on top. It's harder to keep control, especially in the beginning with your thumb on top. Grasp it as if someone just handed it to you. Thumb all the way around the handle. When you hammer you use your lower arm more and have a firm wrist. You don't hammer with a wrist motion. That works fine for jewelers and light work, but for hot hammering keep it stiff. Smiths develope Popeye arms. The lower arm gets big. I had one guy show how to hammer by putting the thumb on top and using wrist action and then complained about carpel tunnel.

[FieryFurnace]

There are a lot of opions here, some good and some not so good. The basic idea with hammer techniques, anvil height, and forging, is do what works for you and what doesn't hurt you.

Having said that, here are a few rules of thumb that are law when forging.

A bigger hammer does more work, faster, using less energy......WHEN USED CORRECTLY! If you are hurting your arm with a 2-pound hammer, grab a 4 pounder, choke up on it, and swing slowly, lifting your hand high above your head as you forge. Choking up on the hammer allows the handle to act as a counter-weight, giving you the effect of a 4 pound hammer without the feel of a 4 pound hammer. (Study sword history and design....counterweight is key!)
Swing slowly until you get comfy using the tool. Speed will come naturally with time.
Get the hammer up high. If you are using short tiny blows, you will be trying to speed up the hammer with your arm, instead of letting the hammer gain speed as it falls onto the metal. Get the hammer high, and let it's own weight bring it down. Your arm should guide the hammer, not slam the hammer. When holding the hammer loosely, the hammer handle should pivot in your hand on your middle finger. Using a larger hammer, choked up on the handle, will teach your proper handle grip.

If your anvil is too high, you will not be getting the full range of motion in your arm, therefore cutting down on the distance the hammer will fall before contacting the metal. Your arm will be bent too much, and you will not be utilizing gravitational pull on your hammer to it's fullest advantage.

If your anvil is too short, you will do one of two things. You'll always be bent over it, putting excess strain on your back., or you will be over-extending your arm with a sort of "snapping" motion, as your arm extends fully and then has to "stretch" in order to reach the anvil. Neither of these are good!

Where is the perfect height for your anvil? Experiement! Everyone is different, and where knuckle height is comfy for one person, it may not be for the next. I use a tripod steel anvil stand and bolt various thicknessess of wood to the feet, until I find a height I like. You can do the same with a plain anvil stump. Experiement until you are comfortable and can forge all day without pain. (Once you find your ideal height, bolt or stake the anvil stand and anvil down, VERY VERY firmly. ANY vibration is lost energy.)
Knuckle height is a generaly used reference for proper height. The reason why is, when the anvil face is at knuckle height and you grab a hammer, when you lay the hammer face flat on the anvil, it adds length to your arm. This causes your arm to bend very slightly. However, once again, knuckle height is not a rule, it is a reference.


Do not grip your hammer tightly. The anvil has natural bounce, or rebound that helps to pick the hammer back up. If you are overgripping your hammer, the shock of this bounce will go into your arm instead of the hammer. This will cause you to have to use more arm strength to pick the hammer up, as well as putting more strain on your arm.
Hold a very VERY loose grip on the hammer. You are guiding the hammer to where you want to hit, not forcing it there.

[Larry H]

I'm exasperated at this whole post, GO to a hammer-in....meet a few pros...... Maybe when you start for the day you should warm up with one or two small jobs, hooks, tapers, nails.....with a light hammer, then start with the two pounder. Don't rush out and buy a heavy hammer and have to hold it near the head because its two much for you. I've seen a Master Smith use a 1 1/2 pound hammer to create amazing things. You have to learn the proper technique to save your body from wear and tear

[Borntoolate]

Check to see if you grit your teeth while hammering. IF so you are probably also gripping too hard.

[Borntoolate]

My anvil height is actually set so I can do the "crotch hold" on a piece of metal. Brian talked about that and it wasn't far from knuckle high for me. And it seems to work. So I go with third hand = "crotch". comes in handy for me. No pain so far and I had tendenitis when I took up this craft.

[yesteryearforge]

Borntoolate
We call that a leg vise :)

[knots]

I would add only that you should take time to study your current technique and analyze each segment of your swing to identify and then modify any part of your swing that feels uncomfortable. A good time to perform this analysis is when you are having problems because the discomfort will be more obvious where there is a problem.

As has been stated before use the Hammer rebound off of the anvil . My preference is to use the rebound to position the hammer above the hand immediately as the hammer rebounds from the anvil. Check out post # 52 in the link below to see how this old guy avoids exposing the wrist to overloading. Contrary to some opinions I believe that a small amount of body motion is good to get the hammer moving up used with the anvil rebound. Loosen your grip as the hammer rebounds off of the anvil to allow the hammer to rotate up above your hand. Keep a loose grip and use your three lower fingers to manipulate and accelerate the hammer during the swing. Close your grip on the down swing to accelerate the hammer using your thumb and index finger as a fulcrum.

If I were to identify the moment of most stress applied to the wrist it would be on the upswing if you are using your wrist as a primary source to propel the hammer up or even leaving the hammer in the extended position while your arm and shoulder raise the hammer.

We each have our own methods. There is no one best way yo do anything. Use all of the above to find a way that works for you. Then share your method.


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