metalmangeler Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I have been wondering why this is not a common practice? Especially with damascus as getting pins to match is not likely. If anyone has tried this or knows much about it I would be interested before I commit a bunch of time to something that has proven not so good for some reason I don't yet see, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loneforge Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Sounds like a great idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Give it a go and take pics,,,,,maybe it will sove the old puzzle of why you never see it done? In the near futre in knfe chat we wll cover putting guards on,,,Without forge welding or pins! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Dont forget about the expansion coeficents for the HT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aden Cassidy Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 THought of doing this before but don't have any forge welding experience yet. Buying some borax tomorrow and trying my hand at pattern steel on the weekend with some scrap steels first. Have done one guard where it is heat shrinked on, filed a gap just before the edge around the front and sides of the handle. Heated the guard to red and it fits great. only has a gap cut out no hole. Get a photo of how it fits tomorrow when the sun comes up. p.s Took me a few bloody awful hours so it fit properly and didn't come off when being pulled at. Fair few heats and disappointments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Integral bolsters are usually forged out of the parent stock. Forge welding some extra mass before forging the blade out might help; however in particular knife alloys can be tricky to weld. Very embarrassing if you weld on the bolsters and one pops off during heat treat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McClellan Made Blades Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 This is an interesting idea, one that could work sometimes and others will NOT work, like Mr. Powers mentioned that particular knife alloys can be tricky, is almost an understatement. From memory(which is crappy), I think it was 5160 that was next to impossible to forge weld to any other steel. The one time I did see it forge welded into a billet, was through canister welding, which would not apply to the way you want to add a guard or bolsters. Just keep in mind that the material you want to weld to, and be positive that they will get along with each other. To be safe, I'd try like materials, like 1084 to 1084, 15n20 and 1084,1095 and the lower carbon content 10XX steels should work, the only thng I think might be a problem is the amount of hammering it would take and the amount it will deform the piece you are welding to the tang. If you were to use Damascus, forge welding damascus made of 1084/15n20 to the tang of a knife made from 1084 would seem like a good chance for it to work. A good possibility would be to forge weld a double guard/bolster to the tang with the Damascus or ,whatever, guard material, meeting up on both sides of the tang, That should give you a really good shoot at making it work, pay particular attention to the temps when you are forge welding, your gonna have to have both pieces pretty hot, but getting the guard/bolster material to meet up and "marry" to itself is the best way I can think of to make this happen. Good LUCK and keep us posted, sounds like a great idea and would be an impressive way to show off your forging skills! Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Thanks for the replies. This gives me a little more to think about, I had been thinking of steel that was compatable, I have made integrals before and that has worked out well. I had not thought about adding the welded on bolster onto the out side of an integral but that might help with less distortion to the tang or blade. What I want to do is add a mosaic piece to my blade. Rich I have been looking over the knife chat after the fact, I plan to continue to learn from you with more experince as it shortens my learning curve, so thankyou and Steve for taking the time to put it together. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhettbarnhart Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Mclellan that was a well thought out answer,thank you.Also another thing you may want to think about is that forge welding would mishape the bolster and reshaping bolsters after they are attached is a PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! rhett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McClellan Made Blades Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Mclellan that was a well thought out answer,thank you.Also another thing you may want to think about is that forge welding would mishape the bolster and reshaping bolsters after they are attached is a PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! rhett Reshaping bolsters doesn't have to be that painful, if your careful with your heat and keep your steel soft, it should be fileable( is that a word?), once you get the bolsters/guard attached, you should be able to shape them with a file, I actually like working with a file, it's slow and every movement you make with the file in contact with your work means something, the beauty of it is that it takes a lot of strokes for it to mean that I screwed up a piece! I've been wanting to make an intergal, it's been on my mind a while, it just seems I get so many irons in the fire, I end up getting nothing finished, a lot of work gets done, just nothing gets finished....to my approval any way! I'd be more concerned about the tang or the blade getting mishapened, that would be where the real work would come in, I think the best way to combat that would be to form the tang and the guard/bolster area first and then attempt to forge weld it on, that way you haven't spent time on the blade, and the blade still has to be forged out. That would be a way, I guess. Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I've seen it done, Scott Roush (over on the Don Fogg forum) did it with wrought for the bolsters. Came out beautifully but all of his knives do. I would have to ask why you would want to? Scott did it to achieve a specific look to his knife, if you are thinking it will be easier than pinning or press fitting it isn't. Before trying this I would suggest forging an integral from one piece, since many of the skills will be the same, but without the added difficulty of welding. -Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 Thanks Justin it is good to hear that someone has done it, that makes it seem more attainable. I have made some integrals like these. I want to add something to the bolster that I can not do with my present skill and knowledge set. I am thinking that the welded on method might work I do not expect to have time to try this until after Christmas, but wanted input so I can think it through when before I try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Don't forget high temp silver soldering as a method of attachment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Looking the pictures of your integrals I'd say that it is well within your skill set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 Thomas I have never tried to solder anything other than some of my plumbing. How do you keep the excess from showing? Thanks for the vote of confidence Justin. It is hard to say without actually giving it a go, since you saw someone actually do it I will deffinately give it a try as soon as I can get my regular orders and inventory issues under control. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 The reason is there is a much easier method - called blind pinning. Done right the bolster will never come off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Tim is right, pinning is much easier. That's why I asked why you want to weld them. Scott Roush has a definite style and for that particular knife he was striving for a specific look. That said it is much easier to pin the bolster, and once you learn the technique it has much broader applications. That said, from seeing your work I believe you will be able to do it, but it will be much easier to learn to pin them and or solder them. Plus learning how to peen pins is very useful for other apsects of knife making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 I guess I may be missing something here, I thought that a pin in a bolster was basicly a rivet upset into a countersink then ground flush, this leaves the pin exposed. Soldering might work or the blind pinning mentioned by 2Tim215. speaking of which where can I find out more about blind pinning. I tried the search here and either did something wrong or there isn't anything to look at. Thanks again for the input. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Blind pinning is when you drill the hole in the bolster but not all the way through - about half way or better, a third of the way. You then cut the pin to size and it's important to note that the part the goes in the bolster must be slightly shorter than the drilled hole length. You do this for both sides of the bolster. You then flatten the tops of the pins lightly on both sides so that it is a VERY tight fit into the hole of the bolsters. You then place both bolsters on and press using a vice or lightly tap with a hammer. The flattened pin heads squeeze into the holes and are basically forced into place and you dont see them on the out side of the bolsters. Remember to protect the bolster with leather so to not damage them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Thank you 2TIM215 that sounds interesting, and fairly easy. I will try it on an experimental item that I can destructivly test first. Thanks again. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loneforge Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Those Integrals are sweet sweet sweet! Nice work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 When peening pins in bolsters the pin is exposed, but if the pin and bolster are of the same steel and it is done properly the pin is not visible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Justin, I was thinking that getting a pin to match in a pattern weld would be too tricky for me. I suppose that if I made it high contrast that could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 You are right, I wasn't paying attention. If it is pattern welded then it won't work. I would give Tim's blind pin idea a try. That or else you can always go with you original idea and weld them on, I don't think it will be that hard just use light blows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 Thanks to the compiments Loneforge, I thought that I thanked you last night, but it dosen't look like I did. We all like positive input. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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