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I Forge Iron

McClellan Made Blades

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    Deatsville, (Central) Alabama
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    KNIFE making, general forgings for needed items, primarily the things needed to make knives. Hangars, fixtures, etc. (I'm also pretty active on knifedogs.com, a family friendly forum). I am first and foremost a Knifemaker, BUT the ability to forge is an invaluable asset to all the things I do! I also have an interest in inlaying silver wire, (and MAYBE) gold...That will more than likely be an interest with the gold, but definitely silver! And I am a crazed Bowhunter/Archer, I love several different types of archery, from the basic modern compound bows to the recurve bow of old, not that I'm very good with the older type, I still enjoy it! I would like to figure out how to forge my own broadheads one day..., it would be super cool, but not with the possibility of NOT being able to deliver a quick clean ill

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  1. Ciladog, So does the color of that area of your press help with being able to see your work better? I'm curious about the steel being red, I was initially thinking that black would be a better color, with the steel red <forging temp red>, the work area painted black should be easier on the eyes, but then I saw your press and that made me think that, maybe having brigther colors in the work area might have some advantages. My forging area is set up where I can cut the lights off to be able to see the color of the steel I'm forging, while I have lights on the other side of my shop, and I can also have lights on the same side as my forging area, just not directly over it. I spent way too much money on wiring my shop, BUT! I ran every plug on it's on 20 amp circuit! And the lights have their own circuit, as well. Before I did all that, I was flipping breakers every time I turned around, so I DO NOT regret spending the money, and I can run one (or 2) of my heaters anywhere in the shop with no fear of breakers popping! Thanks for your input, once I get started on this build, I want to have everything I need to know and everything I need to do ready before I get started so that once I get started I won't have to stop for unplanned things. Thanks for sharing the pics, Rex
  2. Reshaping bolsters doesn't have to be that painful, if your careful with your heat and keep your steel soft, it should be fileable( is that a word?), once you get the bolsters/guard attached, you should be able to shape them with a file, I actually like working with a file, it's slow and every movement you make with the file in contact with your work means something, the beauty of it is that it takes a lot of strokes for it to mean that I screwed up a piece! I've been wanting to make an intergal, it's been on my mind a while, it just seems I get so many irons in the fire, I end up getting nothing finished, a lot of work gets done, just nothing gets finished....to my approval any way! I'd be more concerned about the tang or the blade getting mishapened, that would be where the real work would come in, I think the best way to combat that would be to form the tang and the guard/bolster area first and then attempt to forge weld it on, that way you haven't spent time on the blade, and the blade still has to be forged out. That would be a way, I guess. Rex
  3. Ciladog, Dude, That is a sweet press and do ya think those dies are big enough? Could you not find any real big ones?? I'm kidding, ok maybe half kidding and half wondering why are they so big? I have seen a lot of dies and most of them are really big, very similar to yours. Is there a reason for having so much mass in the dies? And does it have anything to do with the amount of pressure involved with the mashing(tonnage being forced) power of the press? Oh and not that it really matters to many folks but I like the yellow, I think having the bright colors like that helps with visibility, I'm getting old(er) and my eyesight aint the best, I can se where that would help a good bit. Thanks for sharing the pic, Rex
  4. This is an interesting idea, one that could work sometimes and others will NOT work, like Mr. Powers mentioned that particular knife alloys can be tricky, is almost an understatement. From memory(which is crappy), I think it was 5160 that was next to impossible to forge weld to any other steel. The one time I did see it forge welded into a billet, was through canister welding, which would not apply to the way you want to add a guard or bolsters. Just keep in mind that the material you want to weld to, and be positive that they will get along with each other. To be safe, I'd try like materials, like 1084 to 1084, 15n20 and 1084,1095 and the lower carbon content 10XX steels should work, the only thng I think might be a problem is the amount of hammering it would take and the amount it will deform the piece you are welding to the tang. If you were to use Damascus, forge welding damascus made of 1084/15n20 to the tang of a knife made from 1084 would seem like a good chance for it to work. A good possibility would be to forge weld a double guard/bolster to the tang with the Damascus or ,whatever, guard material, meeting up on both sides of the tang, That should give you a really good shoot at making it work, pay particular attention to the temps when you are forge welding, your gonna have to have both pieces pretty hot, but getting the guard/bolster material to meet up and "marry" to itself is the best way I can think of to make this happen. Good LUCK and keep us posted, sounds like a great idea and would be an impressive way to show off your forging skills! Rex
  5. Randy, Thanks! I guess I'm the type that probably over does things, everything I've ever built has been built like a tank, most of my knives would be consider 'hard use' knives, as they are usually forged from stock that starts out at a min. of a 1/4 inch, then I have some steel I like to use that is 3/8 inch thick, no I don't leave it that thick but forging and grinding it down can leave it pretty beefy! Are you familar with Bob Warner or his web site? I haven't talked to him in a long time, I'm not sure if his site is still up. He lives in Texas and the last I heard, he was getting back to making knives, after a serious accident. His site is where a lot of knife makers learned how to build an Elctro-Chemical Etcher from parts bought at Radio Shack, so they can etch their names or logos into the steel, very similar to the Etch-a-matic, same result, except his etcher can be set at 24 volts instead of 12, the difference is a a deeper etch although, it tends to burn up stencils, if your not careful. I'll be ordering the book tonight when I get home, and then I'm going to try and figure out which way I want to start. I'm thinking about getting the welding done first. Depending on how much that will cost. Has anyone checked the prices and products that Surplus Center carries? They have an entire line of Hydraulic parts, with great prices, they carry Prince Hydraulics, as well as a few others. Some are under other names but still made by Prince. I've looked at Nothern Tool extensively, they have great stuff, but their prices seem a bit high. In the world of sue or be sued, there is no company that will stick their neck out far enough to advise any of their customers on which products to by, or even which will work with what! I'm going to check with the manufacturer, to see what info they offer, maybe I can find some good info there. Thanks for the help, I'm planning on or lets say hoping to, do a tutorial on this build, I think I will compete the build before I post the tutorial, so it won't be a WIP. If anyone else has any advice or info, please chime in, I'd want to hear as much info as I can. And Randy, again Thank You for the advice on what to buy first! I hope to buying my cylinder next week...maybe, I haven't decided yet, if I'll wait to get Christmas taken care of first or start buying parts, I'll know soon, Rex
  6. Randy THANKS! Man, is that a nice press! I probably should have given a lot more info about this as well as myself, it's hard being a new guy. when it has been years since you were one! I've been on KnifeDogs since it was started 4 years ago and everyone there knows me, I forget that I'm a FNG here! I was just about ready to pull the trigger on this build 6 months ago,then,the back condition I have, that flares up from time to time. Flared up, lets just say, I have been all the way out of it for the last 6 months, and now I'm slowly getting back in the shop and working. I have been wanting to build a Hydraulic Forging Press for about 2 years. I do have the booklet that Bob Warner put together, it's a step by step kinda tutorial on how to build a press and ways to build it frugally, like by sourcing the cylinder from the scrap yard, the list of possibilities is pretty good, he liked the trash truck cylinders, the big ones that compacts the entire load, but there are other possibilities that can be bought for not much. Really not the way I care to do things, not saying that if I was out there and saw a good looking cylinder at the scrapyard, I would n't jump all over it! I got that book from Bob, 2, maybe 3 years ago. This isn't something I'm doing on a whim, I asked for help/advice, in the hopes that some of the experiences you all have had might help me keep from making mistakes that tend to be expensive. I don't intend on saving any money by scrimping on safe or safer parts, that is why I'm building it the way I am, if I have to wait a little while longer to be able to buy the particular parts I need, then I'll wait and save. The chances are pretty good my 14 year old son will be running it at some point, I'm sure. So this press will have all the best parts I can afford and any items that need special attention, will get it. Ok, so to answer your questions Randy, 1.) The book I'm ordering tomorrow, 2)."Figure out what I'm going to use the press for." Well that is the easiest question of all, primarily it will be used for making Damascus, the way I work, is not so much about production, ok, it has nothing to do with production, I'll spend 20 to 30 hours polishing out a hamon,to get it just right. Just because it's the way I make my knives. I'm still in what I call the, "Due paying phase", I believe that when getting started, there is a time that knifemakers should focus on nothing but making a better knife than their last, studying fit, finish, ergonomics, design and design with what the knife will be used for, then there is metalurgy, wood working, phenolic working, filework, I plan on making folders soon and that entails a lot of other skills, as well as a lot more skills to know how to make a "better knife"(than my last). The Damascus I want to make, quite possibly, will be made for each individual knife build. I'm blessed to be in a wonderful position, provided I take care of my money, that I don't have to make money on my knives, YET! What few knives I sell, are sold way under their value, I kept up with the cost last year on a Santoku I made for a customer, after all expenses, I made .32 cents an hour! Which kinda made me happy, I made profit! I feel like that is part of paying my dues. Right now, I am very happy to get enough money from my knives to be able to buy more materials and put up a little cash towards more equipment. So it does make sense to me, to work on being able to make a single billet of, say, Feather Pattern Damascus, while learning how to make that pattern, I can take the time to learn how to control the pattern well enough to predict where the end of the pattern lands! I'm sure that this press will be used to draw larger steel bars or rounds that I have to the size I need it, none of the stuff I have right now is thicker than 2 inches. There is a chance that I may work on making some dies that will help form the blade, the idea I had, was that the dies would be able to press the bevels in and maybe form the tip a little, possibly shape the tang, this is something I do not know if it's possible, so I can guarantee there will be some experimenting with different stuff. I do know how to heat treat dies and the such, that is something I took to right off when I started making knives. 3.) Third, then figure what tonnage and then what frame will work best for what you want to make or do with the press. I have found a cylinder that alone will generate around 15 tons on pressure, my dies will be approximatley 3" sq, give or take, a little here and there, drawing dies, should be 3"x maybe, 4 or 5", ladder pattern dies, probably 2 x 5 or maybe 6, depending on how I design them, and how I design the die holders, the idea I have right now has the bottom die extending outward about 3 to 4 inches, then again, I may change that if it looks like it's more wasted space than usable space. The "C" frame, as the one in the picture is, will do everything I need it to do, Bruce Bump uses it for everything, from general forging to the Mosaic Damascus he makes, to the Cut-N-Shoot knife guns he makes, as you can see the cylinder he has on it looks like it's about the size of a Brontasaraus's leg! So he has plenty of mashing power! I was thinking that once I've had some time working with it, and possibly be able to generate a little cash flow, I can upgrade the cylinder I startout with to something a bit stronger. Provided I (over)build the I beam frame to be strong enough in the beginning, that shouldn't be a problem later on. Then you need to figure where your motor, pump and tank are going to go. Attached to the press? Under it? On a separate cart? Yes, I am now working on figuring our where to put everything, the size of the motor, pump, the tank, I was planning on getting the biggest tank I could find, in Bob's tutorial he builds his own tank, my welding skills aren't good enough to do that. So I'll buy at least a 10 gallon, Also, I meant to say that Bob's Tutorial has the directions for building a foot pedal, with the arms that attach to the valve, so that you can control the cylinder both down and up, if you'd like to see more on Bob's tutorial, look up his websight, i think it's like BobWarner knives, just google that, he is a great guy, he has alot of tutorials on there, one of them is how to build an etching machine that will also annodize, I think that's right, I know it's a machin that will annodize and also do something else. Thanks for the help Randy, let me know if my thinking is right and I'm on the right path ,Rex
  7. This is the anvil I've been looking for! Are these going to be available for sale? Is there a place where these are being sold? This is te perfet KnifeMakers anvil, while the horn and heel comes in handy every now and again, it is rarely used in my shop, and if a horn is needed, there are ways to this anvil here can work with the addition of a half round piec eof steel with a flat bootom and maybe a post for the hardy hole. Really nice looking anvil, although 4 1/2 inches sounds a little narrow, I'm sure I could get used to it. Very nice, if you wouldn'y mind would you contatct me at d_r_f_1(at)youhoo(dot)com, Please and Thank You!!! Rex BTW, I know several people that may be interested in an anvil like this.
  8. Wow! Thanks Guys! I probably should say that I do know my limitations, and welding would not be one of my best skills, I do OK for simple stuff, but when you're talking about several tons of force jacked into one spot, it is a real serious situation, I have a fab shop down the road from where I live, I'm hoping that I can get everything welded to it at one time, and still be able t move it. That is my only concern about taking my parts to the welding shop, if I see that it is going to be too heavy to move, I have a friend that is a welder, (I would prefer to pay the guy at the fab shop than to owe a favor!) but he has all the equipment to come to my shop and do everything, this guy is a certified welder, he's been doing it for over 30 years, he can stick, mig, tig, Oxy/acy, and I'm sure if there is some other methods I haven't heard of, he can do it! He's the type of guy that wouldn't allow me to pay him, then whenever he needs help moving or some other task that'll take up 3 or 4 weekends, I'd be the first one he'll call! And I would feel bound to help him, so we're going to shoot for the fab shop! I don't have a lot of time right now, but to answer some more questions quickly, I am familiar with Dr Batsons book, and do intend on picking one up before I begin buying or building. Thanks Randy, the cylinder will be my first purchase, although I may go ahead and get the welding/fab part taken care of once I get the plan together, and Macbruce, I can do better than a drawing, I have a picture of one of these owned by Bruce Bump, it looks to me like the perfect forging press, provided I can figure out how to add pics on here, I'll post one up. And check back tonight to see what you all think, Thanks so much , Rex BOY DID I just get LUCKY! This is a great pic of Bruce's Hydraulic Forging Press, I'm not sure how many of you may know or maybe heard of "Indian" George Rebello, which I probably spelt his last name wrong, I do believe this design, either came from him or was a collaboration between him and Bruce, not sure about that, I do know that I.G.has done a lot of work with building this type of press. I talked to him a few months ago, I am from Alabama, he is from, I think either Maine or Minnesota, he sounds like he is sitting in Boston! He has an accent so strong, that during an hour long phone call all we got was frustrated, he couldn't understand me and I couldn't understand him! I told him, "You'd think we were from different countries", he said, "You are", understood that clearly! He's a great guy and really tried real hard to help me, but the language barrier was just too much to overcome! Randy, I'm going to be getting on the cylinder here in a week or so, not sure if I'll buy it first and get the welding done, or if I'll get the welding done, and wait on the cylinder a little while longer..........oh crap, I just realized a little something that totally left my friggin brain, CHRISTMAS! CRAP! OK, well, now I'll be getting back with y'all, let me see what the budget will allow, I may have to wait until next year! Dang it! You know when you realize that you screwed something up while typing it is hard not to type the curse words you were thinking! But I controlled myself, just so danged disappointed, this build has been put on the backburners for quite sometime, I've been sidelined with a severe back condition for several months now, no knifemaking, no shop working at all. Heating pad and ice everyday I come home from work, now I'm slowly getting back to working in the shop after a procedure I had last week, feeling much better, but I still have to be super careful. I was getting so amped up about finally seeing the right diection to go and now that I know how to get started...well, I'll not say for sure that I'll have to put it off for too long, it all depends on how much Christmas costs. Y'all check this pic out and let me know what you all think about it, let me know if you all have seen one like this, I'm not positive this is an I.G. creation or not, I do know that he has built a couple like it. Thanks again Guys, I really appreciate everyone chiming in, and the concerns for me being safe, quite touching actually. Who would have thought a bunch of burly blacksmiths could be so sensitive!?!?! Awww, I'm kidding, I know what's up, just a bunch of great people looking out for their fellow, Brother-n-Steel! A Sincere, Thank You! But not to worry, there was no chance in me welding that up, my welds wouldn't hold for a 10th of that force, that's why I only weld non weight bearing type stuff. Anything that needs REAL welding either goes to my Bro-n-Law, or my other buddy, that is the last resort, I know the last time I used him I stuffed a $50 in his pocket, and told him to be quiet, for 20 minutes worth of work and maybe 3 minutes worth of welding, I felt like I may have been close to the right price! Ok I gotta run, I'll check back tonight and see what you all think, provided I don't go to the shop, if I can work a couple of hours I may not be able to check back tonight, so it'll be tomorrow, Thanks, Rex
  9. Hi guys and I'm sure a few Lady's, I am at the very BEGINNING, of the process, of building a Hydraulic Forging Press. As with most everyone money is tight, because of that, and the realization that I do enjoy and get satisfaction out of building my own equipment, I decided to build my own Hydraulic Forging Press. I have decided on the vertical set-up, using an I beam as the foundation, the cylinder is attached to the top of it with the clevis pins, then there is a shorter I beam that is welded directly in front of the main beam, where the bottom dies are attached. I'm not sure if anyone has seen this type of configuration for a forging press, the problems I'm having are which parts should be purchased first, I'm a bit apprehensive about buying any certain part and then getting cornered into having to use specific parts that I may not want, or find a great deal on another part and find that the 2 aren't compatible. I'm starting to think I may be over thinking this, or worrying too much about losing a few dollars. I do understand that i will have to spend some money to build this, I am not niave to the fact that this stuff is not cheap, but I also know that with a little bit of determination, armed with knowledge and a little help from anyone I can get it from can go a long ways to keep what little money I do have and still be able to build a quality machine. So I'll ask my question like this. Are there parts that are more important to buy first? What experiences have any of you guys had with cylinder strength? The formula I found uses the bore and rod sizes, it's actually a calculator I found on Surplus Center's website. So far, what I understand is that the rod size needs to be a minimum of 2 inches (in order to get the amount of strength I want), I am trying to save up for a cylinder that has, at the least a 4 inch bore, 5 would be much better, but I haven't found any with a 5in bore that were affordable. I don't have all of my notes with me, but I have a fair understanding of what I want to do and I hope that maybe someone here might be able to shed a little more light on this subject. I do want it to have around 20 tons of mashing power. I would settle for a little less, like somewhere between 15 and 18 tons, but I don't want to go any less. I have found the cylinder for this, which would cost less than $200 at Surplus Center, I can't remember if it is a 2500 psi or 3000psi, which brings up another question, which one is best? 2500 or 3000? And, If I have a 3000psi pump and get a 2500 psi cylinder, will that work together? Here's another question I was wondering about, do ALL the parts have to be rated or "related" (to or) for each other? I'm not sure if I'm asking that question the right way. I've seen so many parts, and pieces that go to this build, 1 being the valve. I have heard that a regular Log Splitter valve will work, but I don't know what the correct terminology is, for that type of valve. I would like to be able to have all the correct names/terminology so that I can shop for the items I need, again to be able to save money. I know I will have to spend money to build this thing, and I don't have unrealistic expectations, I just want to find the best, most economical way to do it, and when I get done, I plan on having a list of all the parts and where to get them, where I found the best deals, where maybe someone else can benefit from what I learned and be able to build one as well, Thanks for any and all help I can get from you guys, I appreciate the fact that so many of you will stop what you're doing in your busy day to help out us Newbs, to the world of HOT STEEL! Thanks Again, Rex
  10. Raven, There is another product very similar to ITC 100, it's called Plistix, I have used it and did notice a big jump in temp and the time it took to get my work piece to temp from before I had it on there, plus it is A LOT, (I mean), a whole LOT cheaper than ITC! You can get it from Wayne Coe, he sells it, as well as a lot of other products. My mind is drawing a blank, as too his contact info or website, if you can't find it through Google, email me at d_r_f_1(at)yahoo.com, my name is Rex. The plistix seemed to do a pretty good job, but I haven't used the ITC, it was too much on the pocketbook! I think the Plistix is a reasonable substitution, as far as I can tell anyway. I'm pretty sure you'll find him on Google, I think he has a personal forum on Knifedogs.com, a knife makers forum, although he does make knives, he's more into the Artisan Blacksmithing kinda stuff. Hope this helps, Rex
  11. I guess I'll stir the pot a little and go ahead and mention to the fella wanting the info, to google Super Quench, it is a combination of a lot of different house hold items, including dish detergent, that stuf that drys your dishes in the dish washer, get the generice version, etc, there is more to it, I would have to get up with Wayne Coe as he is the one thatgave ot to me, who ever, I never used it. There are many that swear by it. I believe that if I am going to put my sweat, pain and pleasure into a blade, I will make something useable, maybe only worth being seen by me, as it will be ugly as sin! Remember this, there are many many different areas or skills, that you will need to put energy, time and of course money, into this obsession, why not make the best of each one, because each one will be lessons you will have to learn, that must be retained, I know you're trying to avoid burning the one piece of HC steel you have, I guarantee you just about everyoneon here can empathise with you, because we felt the same way at one time or another, but what was learned was to make a knife out of the best quality steel/materials you can get your hands on . Look at where you are right now, learning how to HT a steel that you'll NEVER USE a knife blade. Yep pretty much useless info, other than learning what not to do, which there seems to be so much more of that, than what to do! When I first started (only 4 years ago), I was trying to make Excalibur, or so I thought, I scraped piee of steel after piece of trying to make it turn out perfect. Never mind getting to the steps of HTing, or the wood working, learning handle ergonomics. I soon realized that I would have to take whatever MY BEST was and like it, or I would NEVER finish a knife. Once I realized that, I started seeing the places that were make it or break it for that individual knife, and adjusted my process to be able to finish it with out destroying it, fo rme it was taking it back to the grinder after HT, so I started finishing the blade all the way out completely hand sanded to 600 to a 1000 grit, of course once it comes out of HT you have to do that all over again, but sanding aint never hurt no..., killed no one, it hurt a many that has had Tennis Elbow flare up from hand sanding for hours on end. Do your research, like Mr. Powers said he is getting coil spring, great steel for making knives on a budget, (WHAT I mean is that while it is good steel and if you have a ton of it you can dial in every nuance of the steel, learn every aspect of it and be able to make a good knife, I feel like to make great knives you need to start with great materials, now I'm not talking about Buying CPM154CM or anything else fancy, you'll soon learn that you can make an exceptional blade from 1084, that was made for KNIFE MAKING! Contact Aldo Bruno for his 1084FG, can't get any cheaper than that, makes a great knife that can perform better than some better quality steels) easy to HT in a forge or with a map torch, Oxy/act, whatever you have that will get it to non magnetic, quech in oil and Temper, your process here may take some learning so hope he gets you A LOT! There are even lessons to be learned just heating the stuff up and hammering out into a bar. If you love to learn new things, then congratulations you hit the jack pot on a skill tha requires you to learn more stuff to have fun than probably anything else i have ever heard of, and it is THAT challenge that makes all crazy to figure out how to do it better everytime we light a forge! There now you'll be thoroughly confused, my advice finish out the rebar, just to get a feel for whatever it'll be with out using up too much of your resources(cash), then work toward better quality steel, that way when you hit it just right, you will have something you can test, that starts another epic journey! Rex BTW sorry fo rth eTypos, at work gotta go!
  12. Wow, guys, speaking for myself only, there are some seriously smart dudes, here! I was only given a fearful warning about Vermiculite, and coming from the fella that gave it to me, I just took it as gospel, because he is the no non-sense kind of guy and he says, "don't do some thing" or, "to do something" I didn't question him, all I CAN remember is that the setting was with other knife makers and Blacksmiths, who all agreed, I'm a dumbXXXXX Newb, (yes after 4 years, I still feel that way),and I aint gonna question a guy that I know, knows what he's talking about! Sure wish I could remember his name! I do believe it was at, Batson's Bladesmithing Symposium. He was sitting with a guy that I can recall his name, as I have done a little business with hm. I think it was, Wayne Coe. An artisan Blacksmithing, Knife making, grinder building, treadle hammer building, forge building and seller of all kinds of knife making related stuff! Including forge building supplies, motors with or w/o matching VFD's. All around pretty good guy, it could have been Wayne that told me that, about the Vermiculite. Y'all please bear with me, I do joke about the "Dain Bramage", but that is how I've gotten through a pretty tough time in my life, by laughing at everything I could including, and especially myself. I still joke about it, I guess because it's so XXXXXX frustrating, and at times just about makes me crazy. I did remember that it was Carcinogenic! See, something like that, stuck! But, why? How? Don't ask me about something that happened yesterday, but then again, I may be able to recall it, with knifemaking it seems a lot more stuff sticks, don't know why, or how, it may be because it's the second thing I'm most passionate about, (the first is my family), that passion that drives me to keep going, through what seems like even more difficult times, than in the past. I'll do my best to give good info, as I'd hate to give anyone bad info, but like I always say, there are many ways to make a knife, and only 1 right way, and that is the way you make a knife, the best! I can only promise to give you guys the best I have, now I may not be able to back up whatever point I'm making and if that's a problem, I'll try to make it a point to be able to. I would prefer, to go by own experiences. But that would limit my knowledge base, as I have been studying knifemaking for a long, L O N G time! So there is info I have that I've learned by reading, I should say studying it, which may only help the individual find the info he needs. Now about the original problem, I really see several things that were pointed out here that could be parts of the problem, I like what Mr. Rich Hale says, that makes perfect sense, when cooling during normalizing, like most folks I hold it, (yes I do point it North, feel pretty silly doing it, but like I told my son, it doesn't hurt nothing to do it, and who knows? The old timers that came up with that may have known something we don't!?) when I do my last cycle I have a ceramic blade holder I put mine it edge up spine down on the ceramic. Taylor Made, You might want to try a test blade with out laying it on the Caolwool and see how it does, that does sound to me like it could be the biggest factor in your process. Also, maybe try leaving it a little bit thicker, a let us know how it goes. Sorry I got so long here guys, it usually takes me a few more words to get my thoughts out, and I try to be carefull how I word stuff, so I'll just stop right here, if I can be of help, just give me a holler, Rex Mod edited to remove profainity as per IFI ToS
  13. Taylor Made, My advice would be to do 90 to 95% of the hand sanding BEFORE HT! I have seen the same thing with all of the 10XX steels, really thought they were hard until I had to do some hand sanding on some ATS-34, which is the Japanese equivalent to CPM154. Now that stuff is hard as Superman's knee caps! But seriously, I am almost all self taught ( I have had a lot of help from Forums like this one and primarily Knifedogs and one other guy) and after destroying several blades taking it back to the grinder after HT, I decided that if I couldn't get the scratch out it was a'gonna stay! And since doing that, a couple of things have happened, one - tennis elbow is a lot closer to flairing up during daily activities, I tend to do a really great job at handsanding BEFORE it goes in the kiln, because I really don't want to do all of that handsanding and one more thing, my success rate went way up! If your dead set on annealing it, I'd say to get some....(here is where my dain bramage flares up) of that red looking stuff that is used for annealing, I can't recall the name right now, it's not great stuff to have aound the shop if you really don't need it, as it is Carcinogenic. It'll come to me, about the time I go to bed tonight, I'll be laying there with the wife and blurt it out, get a WTH look, and then have to explain it, well, not so much as I used to, she has gotten used to my retarded ways. From my experience, with 1095, as long as your not forging and grinding too thin, you shouldn't have a problem with either, although I rarely anneal, I do normalize 3x's, some time 4 or 5, depending on how hot I had to get it. I have some 1095 from Aldo Bruno, it's some old stuff he has had for a while. This stuff is 3/8th's inches thick! It is a bear to forge by hand, my Tire Hammer does do very well on it, but I still have to get it noticebly hotter than other steels, to feel it moving under hammer, and then it's very slow going. How thick are you taking it to before annealing? I generally will leave my edge about .2 (2/10th's) with plenty of meat behind it before HT just because I don't want to have to deal with the warping, bending problems, I am not trying to make a living with this either, and I don't mind rubbing on a blade for a lot of hours! I have been wanting to make another big chopper and this time leave the entire blade at a convex edge , slack grind the entire thing! I have thought that would be cool, maybe something a little different, until I found out that the Japanese made several of their blades that way. I'm still going to do it, my reasons for doing it is because I believe that with added steel left in the blade, coupled with a clay coated spine during HT, it should be a super tough blade, should be that is. A fairly simple way to see if you really need to anneal before you HT is to try doing as much of your hand sanding done before you HTing it, then at what ever grit you stopped at, say around 400, go back to some where around 220- 320 after you temper it, whatever your comfortable with and finish it up, you may have to go a bit lower to get the scale off, unless you want to use the white vinegar trick, then you won't have to worry about scale. Do a couple of test blades, write down everything you do differently, keep like a log book or diary about what all you changed in your normal pocess, take notes of the pro's and the con's. I keep 2 or 3 notebooks in the shop all the time, and 1 dedicated to HTing, since I started doing that one thing, it has helped me tremendously. Remember all steels...., heck NO steels are created equally, they are ALL created a little differently, so you may have to dial in the HT on every batch of steel you get in. Of course they should all be fairly close, to your regular process, but sometimes they can be way off. This BLACK MAGIC know as metalurgy! Too much fun! Hope this helps and if I can help any more just give me a holler, Rex The red stuff was called Vermiculite! But if you can find a way NOT to use it, don't! It's bad stuff to have around, esecially if you have small kids around. Wear your respirator when ever you're putting a blade in or taking it out, it is seriously BAD stuff!
  14. John, I have a question/suggestion, I would strongly recommend getting some Commercial grade quench oil. With all you have spent on the tools you have, the quality steel you're using and you're still using ATF? I know a lot of people will say that it works just fine and many will have a great argument for using it, MY experience is all I can go by and the main thing I noticed in my blades when I changed from Canola oil, to Maxim Oil's DT-48 Quench Oil, it that my knives stayed sharper during my usual testing routine, actually, I tested them a bit harder after using the DT-48! Like someone else said, I would recheck your HTing times, to me soak times are determined by the blades size and thickness, I would say in general 10 minutes 'SHOULD' be long enough for most blades to get into solution, I say "should" because there's a reason metallurgy was once thought of as a "Black Art", there are so many factors as to the why's, the how's, and the, Oh CRAP'S! My only point is this, think about ALL, I mean everything you're putting in a single blade, why not have a quench oil MADE to do the job it is intended to do? I know there are guys out there that will jump up and down about this topic, and I am not posting to open that can of worms up. My experience has shown me that if I am going to buy all the best quality parts and pieces I can afford including the very best steel I can afford that will give me the performance I'm looking for, then why not give the steel the best possible chance to be ALL that it can be? I want to make this clear too, I am not a salesman, or have any ties to Maxim whatsoever, other than I was in on the bunch of guys from KnifeDogs forum that contacted Lee Neves at Maxim and discussed making this quench oil for us. If you don't know it yet, you will soon find out there are few quench oil makers that want to deal with knifemakers, much less talk to them on the phone about making it for us. He did step out on a limb and made up a lot of this oil for us. I don't know if he is their metallurgist or if he owns the place, I know that he also carries Parks quench oil, for those knife makers that want it. While he still makes the DT-48 for us as well, it is A LOT cheaper than the Parks, the last time I bought a 5 gallon bucket, shipped from Texas to Alabama was right at $100.00, that ain't a bad price at all. And I have quenched 1075, 1084 (mostly), 1095, and W2 in it, if you're wanting it faster, just heat up a chunk of steel when you're cooking your blade and put it in just before you put your blade in, that'll increase the viscosity of the oil and make it cool faster. Or if you're the more technical type you can heat your quench tank up to around 125 to 140, over 165 and you will not cool it fast enough, that's the break over number between cooling too fast and rendering your oil useless. Also, as some have already said, don't get too caught up in the numbers, your testing should tell you everything you need to know about your process. Also, keep in mind that getting your blade from the kiln to the oil as fast as possible is important as well, you want to do that in under or reasonably around a second or so, I have heard some makers say on certain steels, you have to get your blade from the HT'ing temp to a specific number(600 degrees) and (it was W2), in under a second, Lots to think about there, if I can be of any help I'll do my best to help in anny way I can. I don't like to discuss the type of topics that are left up to a lot of opinion, not that I won't give you mine, AND I will generally specify where my info comes from, if it is from my own experience I'll say that, if it is something I read somewhere, I'll say that, a lot of the time, I will say something that will sound like, I don't remember where I got this from,but I recall this ____. What I'm trying to say is if I know it, I'll share any and all of the info i have with anyone, I will never say that my way is the best way or the only way, I will say "what has worked for me is ______. I am by know means any kind of expert, I have been making knives only 4 years, so I still consider myself a Newby! But, at the same time I will share what info I do have and know. Hope this helps, Rex
  15. It looks like this question is almost answered here already, but, I'm curious about what type of steel you're using. For 10XX Steels, my favorite, I get from Aldo Bruno, the New Jersey Steel Baron, ( I need to check on him and see if Sandy didn't drowned him), it's 1084 with a little Vanadium added, I'm sure the knife makers on here probably either use him, know him personally or have at least heard of him and his steel. My HT recipe for it, is so simple, I do have a kiln, which makes things easier, but it isn't necessary with 1084, you can get just as good a HT with a forge, if I'm running short on time, or if I haven't used that method in a while, I will HT a 1084 blade that way. Taking It to non magnetic in my forge and then letting it soak a little longer to make sure it is thoroughly heated all the way through, this is the same point it comes out of the kiln, into the quench oil. I use DT-48, from Maxim Oil, they not only sell this oil to us knifemakers the guy that I talked to there, Lee Neves, actually MADE IT FOR US! I have used it for 1070 1084, 1095, and W-2, I think that's all of the steels I've used with it, if you want a faster oil, heat the oil with a piece of steel that I throw in the kiln right before I put the knife in, which is what I do with 1084, a put that piece of steel in the oil first then grab my blade by the tang with tongs, and into the oil tip first, and here is the most important part of this process, once it's in tip first, I agitate it back and forth, that is tip straight up then butt of the blade, straight back. I agitate it fairly aggressively, without spilling or splashing any oil out. Now here is where some folks have different opinions, I've seen and done it both ways. But I prefer to check the edge with a file first, I may clean the blade up a little bit as I clay coat every knife I make. But I don't dilly dally around, after I get done with what I wanted to do I get it into the (kitchen) oven that was preheated to the correct temps. I can't remember off the top of my head but I think the tempering temp is (around) 450 degrees. (that's fahrenheit for our foreign Blade Brothers!), I believe that I do this 2 times for 2 hours, depending on the purpose of the blade, I use 1084 for my big choppers, and I like to dial the Rc down some, so it's not so hard. Now, I have heard of quenching during tempering, but I don't recall where i heard it, I want to say I read it somewhere, the name that comes to mind that may have been associated with it might have been something like Richard or Richards, maybe Richardson...heck it could be Johnson with my memory, I figured that my process is giving me great results and that it didn't need to be monkeyed with. As long as you don't go side to side during the quench and you don't get it too thin during forging and/or grinding, you should have zero problems with warping or bending, well, that's my experience, I hope this helps someone, and since I'm the new guy here, I will go ahead and introduce myself, my name is Rex McClellan (Made Blades), I live in the great State of Alabama, I've been making knives for 4 yrs now, I still consider myself a Newb, there is so much to learn, so many different skills to master, it's an elusive creature, but the perfect blade is my goal, I enjoy teaching what I do know, and will help anyone I can. If I know the answer, to any questions through experience, I will say that, if it is something I've seen somewhere, or read about, I'll indicate that as well, I have memory issues, but the things I do over and over will sometimes get stuck up there, if I can't remember I'll let you know that I need to get to my notebooks, or my books that I have acquired, and do use quite a bit, I still check the programs in my kiln's computer, because I have to be sure of what I'm doing, so I don't make a mistake. Being dain brammaged isn't funny stuff, until you are faced with it, then you..., or should I say I did choose to make fun of myself, it was a tough time back then, when I had to go through brain surgery, I was headed to the corner rocking and slobbering until I decided to laugh about it, I laughed all the way through it, 11 years later I'm still laughing at myself, it kinda helps with the frustration, as the memory issues are the only remaining problems I have from the surgery. Memory is something you take for granted until you literally, can't remember breakfast, or what you were about to do. I think everyone can relate to this, it's like when you walk into a room to do or get something and you can't recall what it was, it's like that for me all the time. Except mine goes as far back as my childhood, both long term and short term memory was affected, BUT, I'm still ABOVE GROUND! So I ain't' complaining!!!! Just kinda letting yall know how it is for me, and when I try to explain something, my posts tend t get a litle long.,..., see that was a joke, my posts turn into friggin Novels!!!! So if y'all can just bear with me, I'm sure I can be helpful to the group. With all of that said, this looks like a great group with lots of knowledgeable folks on it, looking forward to seeing what all I can learn from y'all, Have a Great Day! Rex
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