neighbors

[ironstein]

I started a shop in Utah around 9 months ago. I found a 1300 sq ft unit in an industrial area, zoned industrial. Before renting i spoke with all the other tenants to make sure no problems would arrise with noise. When i rented, the owners were informed of the noise issues, and that i would have an anyang 88 powerhammer. They came to the shop for me to sign the lease, i had a witness with me and we went over any and all issues that can arrise from blacksmithing. The owners were great and told me i could make as much noise as i want because there is a structural steel fabricator next door, and one other metal fabricator as well as numerous wood shops. So i rented the unit, installed the power hammer in january, no complaints for eight months. I actively spoke with other tenants (which i didn't have to do) and asked if i was being too loud, not a single person said it bothered them.
Two weeks ago i was asked to stop hammering because the owner of the boxing gym was getting a massage! Keep in mind that the largest rock saw this side of the mississippi is 200 yards behind me, a structural fabricator to the side, an auto mechanic across from me, and an excavating business moving dirt and rock across the street. I was stunned and told the guy that this is my work and i wasn't going to stop working because his wife was getting a massage. He looked upset and was obviously a little embarrassed to be doing his wife's bidding. I took pity on him and told him i would do something else for forty five minutes while she got her massage.
Yesterday my landlord called and told me i had to shut my business down for four hours a day, either in the am or in the afternoon. She wanted me to alter my business model because her client that rents three units has decided to turn the boxing gym into a massage parlor for half the day, everyday! When i told her it was unrealistic to ask me to shut down for half the day everyday, or at the boxing gyms whim, she responded by telling me that they have no choice but to serve me notice to move!
After visiting the city planning office and speaking with the code compliance officer (this position was only created two months ago) she stated that i was perfectly within the boundaries of the law to make noise, smoke etc. She claimed that she thought this area wasn't zoned for a public boxing gym. I don't want to stay here anymore after seeing how my landlords responded. I am licensed, insured and inspected by the city, in compliance on all fronts. Now i am sure my landlords will serve me papers at the end of this month and i am searching for shop space.
Any thoughts are welcomed.
Brian

[cvmikeray]

Stand your ground. The city code may actually prohibit the Massage/Boxing operation no matter who owns the building. If you need more space one option may be to offer to expand into the foot print if the Boxing/Massage parlor moves .....

[Steve Sells]

Many places see those parlors as prostitution, My wife has gotten part of her education as a masage therapist, and there are all sorts of things that have to be done with that to be Legit.

Do not give in. If the land lord threatens you call your attourney, they may be supprised when they find IF they evict you thay may have to pay you your recovery of all expensis of setting up when they had full knowledge of your business as well as your neightbors noise issues as well, they try to boot you after that expence...Its also just plain rude.

[JNewman]

I wonder if this is just an idle threat to see if you will back down. You mentioned you have a lease, you might want to talk to a lawyer regarding the lease. If they are kicking you out before the lease expires they are breaking the lease and you may have a lot of leverage. Maybe you can make them pay for your move if it comes down to it.

You may want to talk to the other noisy tenants to let them know they may be next. Once they cannot hear the hammer the grinders or tablesaw will be really loud and may be the next thing complained about. If 4-5 units all express a concern to the landlord that they will be next they may back down.

[ironstein]

Thanks for the replies. The landlord has lots of issues, one unit is being lived in full time, and the city has told the landlord of the illegality. They are siding with the boxing gym because they rent three units to my one. The landlord was fully briefed on what my business entails. Since i am not in a lease (they wouldn't enter into one) it seems they can evict me as long as i get 30 days notice. Plus, i don't wnt to be lining their pockets if at the first sign of adversity they throw me to the wolves! I'm not going quietly, they will be losing my rent income as well as three other units if things go as the city code official stated! With the way they have treated me and numerous other tenants, i will leave a trail of destruction in my wake to teach them fair business practices.

I am at the point where i am considering buying a piece of property and building a shop. After all is said and done my payment would be similar to what i am renting for now. I am fighting mad about these issues though. The owner of the gym has never bothered to talk with me to try to work something out, they simply complain to the crooked landlord. The landlord happens to be the local dentist as well! I think this whole issue is going to bring alot of heat down on the landlord. There have been numerous issues with other tenants dealing with an irrational landlord, so there will be no shortage of tenants who will go to bat for me. Its just frustrating because business is finally picking up and i feel like i am finally making progress with my work, i have a big job that i think is going to break, and it will probably happen right when im knee deep in all of this. I am hesitant to shell out money for an attorney if they can just tell me to leave since i am month to month.

[ironstein]

@JNewman, i don't have a lease. The funny thing is that the structural steel fabricator makes more noise than all of us put together. I specifically went over noise ordinances with the city and they told me i could put up an oil refinery if i wanted to, this area is full of noisemaking businesses, thats why i came here! It is unfortunate that i am month to month, but i believe i have some leg to stand on since this was all discussed with the landlord prior to my moving in, i also had a witness for precisely this reason.

I appreciate all the positive posts, i am getting quite stressed out about moving, i have put alot of work into setting up this shop, and it is in the perfect location for what i do. It just boils down to money, the boxing gym pays three times the rent that i do. The funny thing is that i haven't had a single complaint untill the gym decided on a new business plan. Who wants to go to a spa thats smack dab in the middle of all this industrial work? The city seems to think that even though they issued a business license to the gym, that they don't belong here, and may even be illegal, not to mention the whole massage issue. The gym clogs the whole parking lot with 30 cars when they only are allowed 6 spaces. My customers have to park elsewhere if they come when the gym is operating.

[george m.]

Dear Ironstein,

You have just learned the lesson of the value of a lease versus a month to month arrangement. In a month to month either the landlord may refuse to renew with the tenant for any reason (except the usual prohibited reasons like race, gender, politics, religion, etc.) and tenant may move out at any time. This is good for situations where neither party wants a long term commitment.

With a lease both parties are commiting to a longer releationship and are legally liable to each other for that period.

Leases are more common with the rental of commercial property because the tenant (like you have) will often modify the premises for their business purposes and needs to occupy the site for long enough to recover the costs of the modifications.

Month to month rental agreements are commoner in residential arrangements where the tenant may be moving out at some relatively near future point, e.g. a student at the end of the school year.

In a month to month the landlord is within his rights to refuse to rent for the next month for any stupid, irrational, or "unfair" reason as long as it isn't based on illegal prejudice. Similarly, the tenant can move out even though the landlord was counting on that rental income.

If you decide to purchase a parcel of property make sure that you have your Is dotted and your Ts crossed. In particular, make sure that the parcel is zoned for industrial uses and if you need any permits. Also, make sure that any construction meets the local building code. Around here (NE Colo.), for example, a pole structure is fine for agricultural purposes like a cattle loafing shed but would not be allowed for something regularly occupied by humans (like a blacksmith shop).

If you move to another rental site make sure that you have at least a 6 month lease with a requirement that if either party is not going to renew the lease that they have to notify the other party in writing at least 30 days prior to the termination of the lease. READ the lease before you sign it and make sure that you understand all of it. If you don't, ask questions. Never sign anything that you don't understand. If there is something in the proposed lease that you don't like and the landlord won't change it, walk away.

Also, make sure the lease specifically states that the site will be used as a blacksmith shop which will produce noise, smaells, and vibrations.

It may be satisfying to make life difficult for your soon to be ex landlord and take an attitude of "That'll teach him to F with me." However, there is something to be said for taking the high road and being as classy as you can about it. You're bound to get muddy if you wrestle with a pig. A grudge will poison your own mind and life longer than an incident where you feel that you accepted a situation, even if it was unfair, and remained a gentleman. Think about the trade offs.

Finally, you may want to explain the situation to your customer and see if it is possible for you to get an extension on the completion date.

Best of luck,
George M.

[Sask Mark]

Sounds crappy Brian.

It would be cool to team up with the structural steel neighbor and build your own building to suit both your needs...

Best of luck.

[ironstein]

Thanks Mark.
@GeorgeM,
I knew what i was getting into when i signed the rental agreement, i tried to get a lease, but they didn't. I know that they have all the rights. I haven't made any major modifications, just electrical for welding plugs and my powerhammer wiring. Nothing that can't be removed and re-installed elsewhere. I removed an air conditioner and used the space to vent my coke forge with a hood, that will have to be removed and the a/c unit re-installed. It will still take a few days and a lot of hard work to move my shop and get set up again.
You gave some very good advice with regards to how i handle the situation. Unfortunately i am a vengeful person when people are being unreasonable. I have been their best tenant in their words. They know they have me over a barrel, and are not willing to work with me. Allowing another tenant to dictate what happens in my business is unacceptable. I will be nice and cordial, but they are gonna feel it when all these issues come to light with their tenant. I can't just stand by and take the high road when they are going to cost me a substantial amount of money. I take responsibility for renting with no lease, but it was out of my hands. I needed a place, and they assured me that noise wouldn't be an issue. Essentially i have no compunction about leaving wreckage in my wake. The landlord is doing whats best for his income without considering the repercussions. If he wants to go by the letter of the law, then so will I! Siding with a boxing gym that has decided to start a massage parlor seems a bit crazy to me, they will wind up losing me as a tenant, and the gym's three units because they didn't stand up to their tenant and tell them they are operating a business in an industrial area. Their tenant obviously can't afford to have the same size space in an area where a gym should be, so why not work to make both parties happy? A bit unreasonable to expect me to shut down for four hours a day.

[george m.]

Dear Ironstein,

On thing to consider is how much of a distraction this fight will this be from the rest of your life and business. That has always been what I've been sorry about once all is said and done after various battles (some successful, some not). I realize that I had spent time, emotions, and brain damage that I will never get back.

Admiting that you are vengeful sounds like the admission of a character flaw to me and one that a person should work at minimizing.

To be blunt, much of this can be attributed to your acceptance of a month to month agreement. They may have promised you the sun and the moon and all the stars but all that is fluff and not worth a bucket of swept up scale. I'm sure at the time the month to month looked like a good idea and you had a comfort level but any protection or ability to force someone else to play nice comes at the cost of a lease. Yes, they didn't do leases but you accepted the potential consequences.

You've reported the possible zoning code violations to the city. Leave the enforcement to them. Your karma will be better if you accept this as a lesson and move on.

Nuff' said. Do what seems best for you but I suggest that you decide what that is by logic, thought, and analysis rather than emotion, anger, and feelings.

If you want to discuss this any more send me a private message off forum. In case you couldn't tell, yes, I am an attorney as well as a blacksmith (long story).

Yours,
George

[John McPherson]

Ironstein, we all get dealt a load of excrement at one time or another. While it seems like a satisfying idea in the heat of the moment, active revenge is like drinking poison and expecting the other guy to die. Just ignore him and avoid him to the extent possible, but don't confront him, and don't let him steal anymore of your life.

He obviously does not care what you or anyone else thinks, he can only see money, not people. So, hit him where it hurts, in the pocketbook. Do not give him any more of your cash. Do be sure to tell everyone you know, in a nice way, that he is a louse that no-one should ever do business with, and why, without getting personal.

Take the high road, use your anger to fuel your move, and chalk it up to experience. Set up your new shop layout using what you learned from this shop. Living well is the best revenge.

[george m.]

Dear John,

Very well said. I agree 100%.

Concurrently,
George M.

[ironwolfforgeca]

a few points i see, since theirs 2 or 3 + renters just as noisy or more than you the landlord can't use that excuse to get rid of you
he will have to find another one

also there is so many parking spaces per renter one renter can't use all the parking thats a code problem ! that maybe a BIG point for the city if you have a business that serve alot of folks then you have to have parking lot for them ! code thing

now a boxing / massage pallor in a heavy industrial zone very ??? code wise thats a C2 zone in Ca
get the black & white on what youre zoning is in hand ! read it

I know a bit about zoning my place is M1/R2 Ive had a few folks try & shut me down over the years new folks move in next door to me in a HEAVY industrial area -- OH my its to noise can't here the TV they call the county LOL then we go through the hold thing of you move next to an industrial zone guess what LOL BEST THING I EVER DID WAS BUY into an Industrial zone !!!!
I have even had 6 cop cars & 8 + cops try and shut me down once @ 3 Am I told them to leave they were not happy @ all !
wanted to put me in jail bad but did'nt have a foot to stand on I told them this was a training thing for the cops & next door of what M1 zone meant I built my wood stove that night very noise job LOL they did tell me to turn down the radio LOL I said ok I cant here it anyhow the Sargent came by next day & we had a good talk @ that point I had no more problem with the cops
my wolfs are another noisy thing there my guard dog/wolfs
the only down side is if someone else next door starts a noisy business I cant complain LOL oh well that life

good luck iron

[george m.]

Dear Ironwolf,

The point for Ironstein is that his landlord, in a month to month arrangement, doesn't need ANY reason, good or bad, to refuse to rent to him for another month. Similarly, he doesn't need any reason if he decides to move. That is the point of a month to month rental agreement. He knew that or should have known it when he moved in. If he didn't like it when the landlord said no lease he should have headed down the road to somewhere where they do do leases. That would have meant that he would be on the hook to keep paying rent for the term of the lease but the landlord couldn't have kicked him out on a whim before the end of the lease.

GM

[ironstein]

John and George,
Great advice from both of you. Being vengeful is definitely a character flaw of mine (one of many). To me being vengeful means reporting code violations to the city. I am aware that the month to month lease gives them all the power. I have not, and i will not give them the satisfaction of doing anything outside the boundaries of the law. I agree that the time i spend being angry and vengeful is a poisonous endeavor. I have gotten my revenge already by talking with the city, and i will leave it at that. I spoke with the landlord last night. I have been and always will be cordial and nice about the whole situation. I asked if any of these units are for sale, three are for sale. My landlord stopped in his tracks when he realized that i will not bow down and allow anyone to dictate when i can and cannot work in my shop, and that i am able and willing to purchase a unit to protect my business. He backed down and stated that if i could shut down the noise for an hour a day we can work this out. I was informed that the boxing gym owner stated that she spoke with me numerous times! I have never spoken to this woman about any of this, she is telling lies to the landlord, and they now know this. They don't want to lose me as a tenant, and realize i indeed have some pull in this town. I told them that i would indeed move out if need be, or if they compensate me i will move to another unit away from the gym to facilitate solving the issues at hand. When he realized i would indeed leave, or move to another unit, i think he realized that this is not just a hobby, and that i take this very seriously. He stated that they don't want to lose me and that the tenant turning the gym into a massage spa is not realistic for the area we are in. I told them that my noise hours are between 8 and 5, and if they want to do massages it would be better suited to a quiet part of the day.
They are supposed to get back to me about the solution to this problem, and i think throwing me out is off the table.

[ironstein]

The lease issue was addressed, its not that they don't do leases, we have discussed a two year lease, they wanted to wait six months and revisit the issue. Unfortunately industrial shop space is limited in this town, and this place is perfect for what i do. I took a risk not having a lease, and i will deal with the consequences. The city has told me that i am perfectly within my rights to make noise and smells in this unit and no one can tell me not to. The problem is that the city issued the boxing gym license, and from speaking to friends on numerous boards, they seem to think the code enforcement official will pursue the issues i have brought to light, but when the vote happens, the gym will be allowed to stay. I think the best solution for everyone will be to move me to a unit not in the same building as the gym. I am willing to do that if i am compensated for my time and energy. In my opinion the boxing gym has told the landlord that either i go or they go, i think they want to expand into the unit next door to me (theres five units in a building and the gym has 3 and is trying to lease the one next to me) and maybe even expand into my unit. I think the landlord has realized what the zoning laws are in this industrial area and might be worried about other tenant issue with the gym. Either way, it looks like i am making headway, if i do move into another unit i will get at least a two year lease, and write in exactly what my business entails so they cannot bring this issue up again.
Thanks for all the replies
Brian

[kustomsteel]

Ironstein I have no advice for you, I just wanted you to know that I'm pulling for you to come out on top of all this. Reading this whole thread, I can see that you dotted your I's and crossed your T's to make sure you did nothing wrong. And sadly there are horrible people in the world who just manipulate money and people to get their way, and many times rational people like you or me decide it's better to walk away than fight a losing battle, but then these people get their way and they don't have a conscience that causes them guilt for the underhanded way they acheive their desires. I applaud you holding your ground!

[ironstein]

Yesterday my landlord showed up and wanted to make peace. Apparently his wife is close friends with the mother of the girl who runs the boxing gym! He apologized profusely and told me he didn't want to lose me as a tenant. I took him over to the power hammer and showed him how loud it can be by using a top spring swage and some cold steel. He told me he thought it would be louder and that this whole thing was due to his wife's poor management skills and the fact that she is close friends with the gym owners mother. Apparently the girls have been cackling back and forth about the noise for two weeks since she started the massage thing in her gym. I explained that i have been here for over 9 months with no complaints, and that the owner of the gym has never bothered to introduce herself or speak with me.
The bottom line is that he gave me his word that i am not to be given notice to move, to ignore his wife and deal with him, and that if need be he will compensate me and help me move to a different unit in the complex, away from the gym. I have my eye on another unit (that i wanted in the first place) it has three phase power, all the welding plugs and upgraded electrical service that i need, and it would be in a different building than the gym with a large embankment between it and the gym. I told him i was totally willing to move to that unit if i was compensated, and that i want at least a two year lease. He agreed and again apologized and told me we would work it all out after he actually spoke to the gym owner (everything thus far had been handled poorly by his wife who manages the buildings).
I think maybe the city contacted him and explained that i have done nothing wrong, and that he is on shaky ground with the gym, it seems like he wants to smooth everything over with me so i don't cause him to lose the other tenant. This is a big load off my mind, hopefully he means what he says. For the time being, until i get a lease, i have a reprieve!

[Matt Smith]

good for you... This goes to show that being polite and courteous even when in the face of being wronged can go along way... I think you have handled this situation in an awesome manner, and I am glad to here that things are finally starting to work out for you.

[Sask Mark]

Glad to hear Brian.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

IronWolf, I didn't think Crescent City had that many cops =D I have a good friend who lives there, and is also a voulenteer on the Fire Dept.



Ironstein, my advice is keep an eye out for your own property. As long as you have a landlord you have the risk of being told to leave. I closed my shop back in 93 because I had a guy walk in my door, and tell me "We just bought the building, we are moving in on the first, you have 30 days to vacate." Since then I have told myself, never again. Hope this all works out for you. BTW, I see lots of empty shops in S. Utah. I am currently werkin in LaVerkin.

[ironwolfforgeca]

BDG we have over are far share of cops here for a small town + were a training stop for outta town'ers AND !!
were not done yet we get other city's disciplinary problem cops you know the ones other cops don't like they get sent this way :(
CHP is good for that -- we just had a sheriff shoot himself in the head in the court building booking room Have no Idea why ??
hear he was like by fellow workers there still working on it I guess was 45 years old had no problems they say ??? Its Sad :mellow:
I am not sure If I ever meet him or not I mite have I have done welding work @ the jail often need to see a pic of him was not in the papper just the name

** PS Is you're friend intrested in smithing ??

[george m.]

Dear Ironstein,

I pleased to see that things have worked out. What you describe is not an uncommon scenario when a couple run a business together.

I suggest that in your lease that you have language along the lines of "this lease shall be binding on the parties and their successors, heirs, and assigns" and "this lease shall survive any transfer of the property by the lessor." That will avoid, or at least give you a remedy for a breach of the lease if the property is sold and the new owner want's you out.

Also, make sure that there is language that any modification of the lease must be in writing. That avoids any he said/he said disputes. There is an old joke about an oral contract not being worth the paper it is written on.

Good luck and I hope your business thrives. If you haven't had any business courses I suggest that you donsider picking some up at the local community college. I have known a lot of folk who are great at their proffession or craft, doctors, lawyers, plumbers, blacksmiths, who are very good at what they do but suck as business people. Running a business successfully takes a whole different toolbox of skills. If you are successful and your business progresses beyond a one man shop all of a sudden you are no longer a craftsman working at his trade but a boss running a business.

Yours,
George

[HJP]

go and buy or build your own shop if the repayments are the same ( there is also the possibility of tax insentives) .i did ,and in an industrial area,maybe you can add a caretaker residence as i did and live there . and in a few years its all yours and you can do as you like , i just bought a 3cwt airhammer , i couldnt have bought it if i would rent , and your bussiness only grows , cheers HJP GET IT HOT AND HIT IT HARD

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

IronWolf, nope not interested in smithing, model railroading is his hobby.