Perrin Aybarra Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I've got a section of rail that's about 4.5 tall by 8.5 long by 2.5 wide. It's 15 pounds. I'd like some advice as to how to mount it and make it safe to use (not bounving around) any help would be awesome. Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Stand it on end, on a heavy base made from dimensional lumber, steel, whatever you can find. You want to grind the face of the anvil in a bunch of ways so you have a fuller, cut-off and anvil face all right there. The key is a heavy base that prevents the anvil from bouncing under the hammer. Link removed at the request of Anvilfire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Aybarra Posted August 26, 2012 Author Share Posted August 26, 2012 My dad says he's got a piece about a foot long. our idea right now is to weld them together with the bottoms facing outward and the longer piece on bottom. this would be mounted to a base of built up 4x4's. I'll post a picture when we get it set up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Link to anvilfire image removed at the request of Jock Dempsey You have the materials for this... The guru of anvil fire has the complete write up on how to.. Basically, you'd cut the top of the rail off at the web, set the excess off to the side for hardy tools... grind the bottom (web side) of the track flat to use as the anvil face, make the hardy hole, then weld it to the end of the vertically positioned (long piece)... center it on the mass... I did this with the available track I had, and recommend it... There's a sweet spot, a horn, and extra material to use for tooling... The key to it all is mass under the hammer blow... So, a vertical orientation is the way you accomplish that... it's not the traditional long linear surface that comes to mind, but If you plan on a horizontal orientation, you're not going to be able to move the hot stuff as easy as if it were vertical... Link to anvilfire image removed at the request of Jock Dempsey <-Click here to read the literature behind manipulating RR track into a diy anvil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Aybarra Posted August 26, 2012 Author Share Posted August 26, 2012 Thanks for the idea. If you don't mind my asking, why do you say I wouldn't be able to move hot material on a horizontal setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 You'll be able to move metal, and it will work as an anvil.... But The physics of impact in forging hot steel require two tools; the anvil and the hammer, and their relationship is symbiotic. Ideally, when you swing your hammer, the impact energy goes through the heated steel where it meets an abrupt hard mass, most of the impact energy is transfered into the hot (softened) steel, the rest of the energy is lost in vibration through the anvil, stand, and ground... there are more variables, but the idea is that you want that abrupt mass to have more mass than your hammer, and you want to focus as much energy of impact to the metal that's being worked, as upposed to dispersing it elsewhere... (now, through imagination) you've now doubled up the thickness of the top of the RR rail, now cut a 2" section off that rail, This 2" section represents the "abrupt mass" you have under your hammer blow... Within this 2" section you have about 2"x1" thick piece of steel welded (energy loss depends on weld) to another 2x 1" thick piece of steel, which then knives down to 2 1/2 inch long by 1/2" thick web (less mass and absorbs energy with vibration), then to the flat bottom of the RR track... In all reality you have a little over 2"x2" of mass under your hammer blow... This would be comparable to hammering on top of another hammer... Now... More imagination... using that pic I posted, cut a 2" cross section where you would do most of your striking, you now have a 2"x1" thick piece of steel welded to a 2"x12" piece of steel, a total of mass of 2"x13" of steel sits below your hammer blow... Which means there is a more abrupt mass, which equates to more energy directed to the hot metal. This would be comparable to hammering on a an anvil around 30 to 45lbs, or triple the mass of your newly fabricated anvil... about 15x the mass of a horizontal RR track anvil... Horizontal will work. There are 100's of examples out there... Just not as well as the vertical orientation RR track anvil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Aybarra Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 If it's all about being directly under the hot metal, why are anvils not taller and thinner? Doesn't that make a 4" round piece of bar stock the best anvil? Not taking into account things like hardening, tempering, etc. Just talking about mass, wouldn't that be best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Well that depends on what YOU are trying to do. The London pattern anvil is sort of a "swiss army knife" anvil it has lots of features to allow you to do lots of things. On the other hand the Japanese swordsmiths anvil is basically a large rectangular hunk of mental. No horn, heel, pritchel, hardy etc. It is optimized for what that smith does. Here in America you can find people selling pieces of 4" stock several feet long to be mounted vertically as "knifemaker's anvils" and they work quite well. So if you do not need any of the "bonus features" of the London pattern anvil then yes a big hunk of steel mounted vertically would be the best anvil for you. I'm taking a simple cube anvil to a week long medieval campout. It was based on the one in the Roman Museum in Bath, UK---only without the mushrooming from the years of work on a wrought iron anvil that one has. I've paired it with a stake anvil that has several curves of differing size and it suits me well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bionicarm Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Perrin, My first anvil was a bit of horizontal rail track that is almost exactly the dimentions you gave. It worked pretty well but it's nothing compared to the "actual" anvil I had. Now I've moved away from my anvil :( and just put together a rail track anvil almost exactly like the one pulsepushthepopulace showed you. It is (so far) much more pleasant to work with. Powers is right. Mass under hammer is better than surface area for moving metal...Surface area is handy for making things straight, though it's not at all necessary. I don't think you have enough material to cut and weld because you only have 8 inches...I'd say just plop that thing on its side and have at it on the narrow part...stay on the top portion of the track when moving metal and use the web if you need to straighten...if you want to go real crazy grind a side of the foot to make a hot cut BUT be sure it's on the back/off hand side so you don't end up in the ER as they stich your hand back together. P.S. Be sure you wear eye protection...yellow eyes are hard to come by Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Aybarra Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 I just got an idea when looking at my rail. What if I welded the two pieces together by the foot of the rail, made them level, and THEN welded a small steel plate to the top? Hey, it'd be more mass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 If it's all about being directly under the hot metal, why are anvils not taller and thinner? Doesn't that make a 4" round piece of bar stock the best anvil? Not taking into account things like hardening, tempering, etc. Just talking about mass, wouldn't that be best? Look at the examples throughout IFI; post anvils, forklift fork anvils, Brazeal striking anvil, even power hammer anvils... These are all examples of longer taller anvils... Getting down to the brass tax, 4" round barstock, say a 16 lb. sledge hammer head, would move hot steel more efficiently then a foot long section of rail doubled up on the top... Take into account what you intend to forge; Is it a blade? an ornamental piece of work such as scroll or decorative hardware? Then based on that answer, use the materials you have on hand, to fabricate an anvil to suit your needs... I just got an idea when looking at my rail. What if I welded the two pieces together by the foot of the rail, made them level, and THEN welded a small steel plate to the top? Hey, it'd be more mass! In it's entirety it would be "more mass" because your adding a plate, but technically it would be less mass beneath the hammer blow in comparison to your original idea of welding the top rails together... People have accomplished beautiful work on less of an anvil... Build it, use it, and be proud of it Perrin... In the end it's all about finding something to pound on... and get to poundin... Look forward to seeing the end product!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Aybarra Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 I mean if it works, I don't care what it looks like! I'm just looking for ideas and things at this point. I think what I'm going to do is set the1ft piece in my base/stand whatever, then cut off the top part and go with the AnvilFire improvised idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eseemann Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 On 8/26/2012 at 6:06 PM, Pulsepushthepopulace said: Link to anvilfire image removed at the request of Jock Dempsey You have the materials for this... The guru of anvil fire has the complete write up on how to.. Basically, you'd cut the top of the rail off at the web, set the excess off to the side for hardy tools... grind the bottom (web side) of the track flat to use as the anvil face, make the hardy hole, then weld it to the end of the vertically positioned (long piece)... center it on the mass... I did this with the available track I had, and recommend it... There's a sweet spot, a horn, and extra material to use for tooling... The key to it all is mass under the hammer blow... So, a vertical orientation is the way you accomplish that... it's not the traditional long linear surface that comes to mind, but If you plan on a horizontal orientation, you're not going to be able to move the hot stuff as easy as if it were vertical... Link to anvilfire image removed at the request of Jock Dempsey <-Click here to read the literature behind manipulating RR track into a diy anvil... Pulse, Now I will start by saying my 13 year old is already better with Physics than I am so I will be pulling her in on this (my girl is SMART!!!). I have seen Thomas Powers tell people they are better off arranging plates for a stake or striker anvil in a vertical orientation over a horizontal orientation and because he is Thomas Powers I am inclined to see him as a subject matter expert. I have wondered why this is and my best guess would be that if you are welding 4 inch wide plate it is likely you will end up with less than 2 inches of weld penetration on each side leaving an air gap between the horizontal plates. I know (at least I think I know) that air is used to insulate sound and sound is (at least I think it is) kinetic energy just like a hammer blow it stands to reason that some of the force would be lost going from plate to air gap to plate. Please let me know if I am on track or not. I liked this post, very well thought out. Link to anvilfire image removed at the request of Jock Dempsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 "stacking" your plates in a vertical configuration is certainly better than horizontal, but unless you make full thickness welds it's still going to make a disappointing anvil. PPP, for further reference, it is my understanding that Jock does not like links to his site (he considers it band width theft) or using his illustrations. Tho I agree his site certainly has some good information to get one started, he will be sending Glenn and co. A letter demanding removal of your link and pic. Still can't post links, lol. Look up "another rail road iron anvil" welding rail is not a beginner project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Jock has said "No linking to his site" and "No use of images or text from his site". At his request, we remove hot links or images as soon as they are reported or found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eseemann Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Anvilfire is Jock's stuff and no one likes people to mess with their stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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