MouldyJoe Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Being brand new to professional Blacksmithing, I was just curious if there was a thread on Blacksmith Ettiquette? Take some people for instance in the kitchen, They only use this pan for this stuff with only this spatula. I do understand the principle and respect of not hitting an anvil directly with a hammer without something in between them. Or if your a golfer don't just keep hitting your ball whenever you want to with people downrange, screaming at them to hurry. Do you understand my question? Is there a set of basic safety/ respect rules similar to "treat every gun like it's loaded, never point a gun at something you don't intent to shoot" type rules. I know what I do with my tools much like how I clean my Cast Iron Cook ware. I want them taken care of in just this certain way. Personal preference is vastly different, but are there basic rules of ettiquette, and what are they? Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregDP Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 As you said everyone is different. If you're working in someone else's shop ask them. To be polite and safe when I'm working with or around other people I prefer my working area, the triangle between vise, forge and anvil to be free of casual observers. I announce when I'm moving hot metal out of the forge anywhere. Do not replace any tools that may be hot from use, like tongs, until they've cooled. Always place hot metal to cool somewhere well out of the way and preferably in a designated area. Folks should always assume everything could be hot, but it's a lesson not everyone's learned. Learn the diffidence between hot working tools and cold working tools, if in doubt ask. Seems like you already have the right mindset! Welcome and I hope you have fun learning the craft! You may meet some folks here that are near by if you include your location in your profile and that's probably the best way to learn the ropes in your area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Bring beer. And don't give advice unless it is asked for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Yes: while I may choose to abuse a tool; I having bought it and am responsible for maintaining it in the first place; a visitor to the shop should *never* do so. (I have lent expensive tools to a person I was fairly sure would damage them as they were facing a time based emergency. I was right they did destroy them in the process of making a deadline and then REPLACED THEM with the identical top of the line items with no prompting---the reason I was willing to lend them in the first place!) If you don't know if a particular tool may be used for hot work *ASK* first! I have needle nose pliers dedicated to hot work and other dedicated for jewelry making. Over heating the jewelry making set will get you persona non grata *fast*. Don't run on at the mouth---particularly if I am teaching someone else, (especially if all you know about smithing was gained from video games or anime). Don't be yanking my attention when I am trying to do a persnickety task. If we are at a public demo don't take it on yourself to explain things to the crowd---that's my or my helper's job (and I won't correct my helper unless they make a bad mistake) Bring your own snacks and water; I am not responsible for *your* not falling over. I am not a babysitter; if your child is there *YOU* better be there too! If you are there for a class with your child, they better be able to sit in a safe place wearing PPE and *watch* quietly. If we are sharing a forge try not to cover my piece with yours---I will do likewise. If we are sharing an anvil I will try to maneuver so I am not in your path when carrying hot steel. You should do likewise. DON'T TOUCH THE HAND CRANK BLOWER UNLESS ASKED TO! Or as I tell people; "It's like riding in a car with someone else driving and you just reaching over to press the accelerator with your foot" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Folks tha visit me with pencil and paper in hand, safety glasses, and maybe even a camera are off to a good start with me. I like if they ask if I mind if they takes pics or makes notes. I like if they look before they stand in any place when I am working. It is not hard to figure out where I may move to considering what I am working on. l also like if they look a bit before asking wot I am gonna do next..The answer may just appear if they wait. i am more than willing to explain anything as i work. It is nice if they have a little knowledge about wot I do, however the last thing i want to hear about anything is " joe ray billy bob does not do it like that" i also prefer that they do not start looking in all of the cabinets, drawers etc in my shop Almost each and everytime i will go through a lot of that with an explanation of wot things are for and maybe even where they came from. The big thing is if they consider that I like the same thing in my shop as they would wish in there shop, And if theirs is limited, they can kind of look into their future a bit and think of wot that means. i hope I have not shown disrespect to joeraybillybob! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I think that some of what you call 'etiquette' would be considered rules and regs, especially for reasons of safety and work efficiency. Times change. In the early days, there were normally two or more men in the shop. One or more would have been striker/helpers, even though they might have journeyman status. Harry Jensen served part of his apprenticeship in Denmark in the 1940's. He said that the apprentice could clean and lay the journeymen's fires, but was not allowed to light them. If a particular job was to be done, the apprentice gathered the tools needed for that job and placed them by the anvil. The apprentice normally struck with the sledge for the job. Some apprentices pumped the bellows or cranked the blower and then quickly ran to pick up the sledge for each heat taken. The tools were put away after the job completion. He said that if something was done correctly by the apprentice, nothing was said. If something was done incorrectily, a journeyman would collar the apprentice, chew him out, and correct him. An apprentice was not allowed to build a fire and do his own hand forging until he was well into his apprenticeship and given permission. In some multiple-man shops, the striker may have had to strike for two smiths at once, perhaps intermittently. The signal to call a striker was often a couple of taps on the anvil by the journeyman. If the striker was working for one man or for more than one man, he would always have a sledge hammer in his hands. Hand hammers were not used for striking. The striker did not talk, especially to tell the smith things like, "The slug fell out of the hole." or "Doncha' need another welding heat?" The helper had to know the names of the tools and their uses. For example, if the journeyman wanted a 1/2" half round swage, he was speaking of the diameter of the swage. The apprentice was also the sweeper and shop cleaner. Victor Vera was brought up in his father's and uncle's shop in San Luis Potosi, Mexico in the early 1900's. He said that women and children were not allowed to cross the threshold of the shop doors. He said that his mother and sister would bring lunches to the workmen, and even they were not allowed to enter the shop. In some smithies in the very old days, the apprentice was not allowed to speak, not even one word, not even to ask a question. It was the journeyman's or master's job to apprehend the forthcoming question and to explain thoroughly, so the question needn't be asked. In my shop, if a person is carrying hot iron to the power hammer or if they are about to take a welding heat, that person yells, "Hot Iron!" In my shop, when finished using the vise, the jaws are nearly closed and the handle left vertical. When using the vise, if your hand finishes on the high side after tightening, you throw the handle downward. If your hand finishes on the downward side, you don't need to. Nowadays, a smith often works alone without a helper, a whole different ball game. "I tell myself, "Do this; do that." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert hanford Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Here are two common sense rules-when carrying hot metal around lift it upwards so its not sticking out and liable to touch someone. When brushing off scale don't brush it towards a colleague. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Number one in my book is not to just grab a tool and start using it, unless it is yours. A few years ago I was at a small local blacksmithing meet and had my open top wooden box of tools with me, it was against the wall so as to be out of the way. I was at the anvil pounding away when out of the corner of my eye I saw a new guy at another anvil swinging one of my hammers. That upset me a bit, but when I noticed that it was my greatgrandfathers blacksmithing hammer I felt like ripping his throat out! Needless to say, he was rapidly aware that he wasn't welcome to use my tools anymore! A blacksmiths hammers can be rather personal items, as is their anvil. Besides that, the best advice I can give you is to tell the other smiths that you meet what you DO NOT know as opposed to what you do know! Personally I have learned a great deal by doing that, much more then if I had blabbed on and on about what I thought I did know. Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pug}{maN Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 good post ! i myself need to know some of these things, and mad i did some no nos at some of my earlier meets and shows.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 just be polite...show respect....listen much .....talk little....ask questions when you need to....the only stupid question is the one not asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 This one is hard in some ways. The rules apply to a lot of situations not just blacksmithing. If the individual respects others this is a good start. If not so much then there will never be enough rules or "ettiquette" without a major indoctrination. I had a young friend the other day ask if I could help him with a woodworking project. He lacks the tools and shop that he knows I have. As we worked he watched where I pulled each tool from and tried his best to put them back there when appropriate. He cleaned up his mess very diligently and made no assumpotions about how things were to be done in my shop. He just asked. He took safety and other advice seriously. In other words he is welcome back any time! Others may not be so diligent about cleaning up or putting things away. BUt if they can be taught... meaning they are willing to learn. then this is a great opportunity to teach someone just how to treat other peoples tools, other peoples stuff in general. Many folks have never been taught this. Take this time to do so. Of course some of the respondents above are obviously doing a lot more than I am and are engeaged in business. That is a different dynamic that I wish you luck with. BUt in general if people are given some specific guidelines to follow most will. The rest can be learned. Then there are the Jerks. They need to be severely controlled or ejected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maillemaker Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Some tools, such as the hardy chisel, or a powerhammer, are inherently dangerous. I always take the hardy out of the anvil the instant I'm done with it; the whole losing-fingers-thing is something I wish to avoid. Heated tools and stock should be quenched, or left to cool well out of harm's way. Hardened steel tools generally shouldn't make violent contact with other hardened tools. Things like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 My journeyman/helper, Daniel, worked at a German forge for five years. As an almost total neophyte, he noticed a small piece of iron on the floor. He didn't know that it was at a black heat. The shop journeyman told him that it was quite heavy. "It didn't look heavy," thought Daniel. He picked it up and of course, dropped it right away. The journeyman and master were watching and had a good laugh over this. They both said together, "We told you it was heavy!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 That hot cut hardie advice is very good! Early on I was using mine and instead of twisting off the cut off piece, I hung it over the far edge of the anvil and smacked it off. . . without removing the hot cut. Just before that I said to myself, "Take that hot cut out before you hurt yourself you dummy! " , I replied, "Nah, it is just a little smack" Well, of course the smack was too hard and the hammer flew down propeling my pointing finger onto the hot cut. If it had been just 1/4" over it would have sliced though my fingers tendon! To add a bit to the other fantastic advice. Working with another smith at a forge is akin to dancing. . . except there isn't always a clear leader. If I am sharing a forge or anvil I like to discuss with the guy or gall what shape of fire they will be requiring, if they will need any help with punching or other operations and things of that nature. That way one of you isn't suprised by what the other will be doing. A big part is fire control, especially sharing a fire. At a meet once, me and another guy were sharing a coal forge, bellows bottom blast with a side hood. Then a rather well intentioned third guy walked up with a bucket half full of pea and dust coal(pea as in the size of a pea, as in a beanish thing) he said that he had been collecting the coal fines for a while and wanted me to have them. Wow, I thought, that is rather nice of him. I was actually at the forge at the time so I was looking around for a place to put the plastic 5 gallon bucket, when all of a sudden he dumped the whole thing on top of the fire! I had to quickly poke a hole through the stack of raw coal and then pump like crazy while scooping it off to keep it from absolutly filling the shop with smoke. The guy had good intentions but. . . If you have a local blacksmithing group and plan on attending it a lot, something I would suggest is to not do much of anything your first time there. Most of the people show up rather often and if it is held at the same place, they will have staked out their "territory" . As in where they place their tool box, which anvil they use, ect. That helped me a lot for sure. If it is a one off event, then it is a different story since everyone there is new to the place. Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chyancarrek Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Frank, now that's the kind of rookie joke that's worth hearing! We just went through a little etiquette issue at a steam up I worked at over the weekend. It's a four forge setup with fairly tight quarters. We had a larger than usual number of folk show up to "work". Part of that group was a fella and his two sons. The father has been there a few times and was ok to work around. His boys however, were another story. Everything from yellow-heat pirouettes into the person behind them to full-on vise-top slam hammering a piece right next to an anvil where another smith was head down over his work. After a few very pointed tune-ups (to them and their dad) about being on the edge of getting ejected from the shop, they calmed down and started working in a safe fashion. Even then though, it was clear from their attitude that they were "tolerating" our advice. The other side of that coin was a new kid who was just starting out and I wish I had had one tenth the amount of his situational awareness when I was that age. He was a delight to work with and around. The upside is that smithing has so many new participants, folks like the "know-it-all" bro's can be left by the wayside without harm to the craft and the youngster who really wants to learn can be brought into the fold. Etiquette with hot iron is no different than etiquette in the kitchen or woodshop. Look around you, do what makes sense, and if you can't make sense, ask. We'll be more than willing to help you keep us safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Never sit on the anvil, you don't want someone putting their @$$ where you make your living... Not using my hand hammer is a big one with me as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MouldyJoe Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 Thanks to all. I went through a lot of the Lessons on this website and they were very helpful as well. Like most of you I have this inner drive to create something useful. I'm sure I will be learning more and more from you all. Thanks again, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I would like to add, don't sit on or lean on stationary tools especially stationary woodworking tools. Especially ones that are not from the local big box store. Stationary tools are for precision work and sitting or leaning on them can either put them out of alignment or cause permanent damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MouldyJoe Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 I would like to add, don't sit on or lean on stationary tools especially stationary woodworking tools. Especially ones that are not from the local big box store. Stationary tools are for precision work and sitting or leaning on them can either put them out of alignment or cause permanent damage. Thanks, My dad's old jointer got way messed up in just that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 The putting back tools and metal is a big one. I have several "students" who have forge privileges but can loose them due to not cleaning up after themselves! I can leave things out in a sprawl if I'm working on an on-going project IT'S *MY* SHOP! But especially for people who show up randomly all their stuff needs to be cleared away and all tools put where they found them. Note: not necessarily where they go; but where they were when I left them from working on my project...total clean up is usually done while waiting for the forge to heat----we get tools out we think we will need and put tools back that are no longer needed. My hammer and tong racks do have a "theme" all cross peens are racked together, all straight peens are racked together, etc; they don't have to be in strict order of size but when you go to find a hammer you know where on the rack it will be! Same with tongs: flat bits, round bits, oddballs with a separate section for "short" tongs so they don't get lost in the forest of handles. Worse than not cleaning up after yourself is putting things where they don't belong making the next smith having to hunt the shop for the tool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Mouldy Joe the most important thing is respect. I have new tools and very old tools and you will figure out which is which. If the smith never uses the old anvil in the corner there must be a reason. or a different rack with hammers. you can always ask. rule number one in my shop "assume all metal is hot" then there is the first test if you are afraid of getting burnt, cut or sweating I will answer all your questions just do not waist my time. Come prepared to work. In my shop safety is first rule no shorts, good shoes and safety glass and hydrate. there two types of people that come to my shop the first is the person who will never pick up a hammer or put a piece of iron in the fire. the second is the one who wants to learn. With the first one I take the time to answer all there questions. and the second one I make them work for it. I am not going to try to explain how to make a samurai sword, when they have never lit a fire. I control my forge if I take the risk of you working in my forge and you break a tool I will show you how to make the tool then you will make 2 one for me and one for you. To me tools are to be used and they break, it happens. Care and maintenance of those tools is money and with out them you can not make money so they have a place where they live and they will not get there on their own. As far as skilled smiths that come in my shop I let them use what ever they need to get the job done. I would hope they extend me the same consideration at there shop. As a student there is no dumb question. It will be answered in time but I will make sure you do not put the cart before the horse. And Yes I am more eager to help a person who takes notes and pictures than one who over thinks it and dose nothing but asks questions with out listing to the answer. and when it comes to putting iron to fire I tell them "Just do it" make the mistake cut it off and do it again make it 10 times and you will be able to do it. Make it 100 times and you figure a better way to do it for yourself. I had many opportunity's to help with boy scout merit badge. The boys who read the book and come ready to learn will find themselves pounding metal the first day. The one who said is there's a book? I told him what my shop rate is and how he was wasting my time. I took the time to bring my portable shop to them and yes he was embarrassed when I got done with him but i bet he will never come to a class unprepared ever again. Life is tough at times and at the forge you will learn the best life lessons that will stay with you for years and years. I know this sounds a little harsh but Blacksmithing is Dangerous and rewarding. Safety first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevan Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Someone walking into my shop smoking gets me irritated, grinding their cigarette butt into my floor is a totally different experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamfab Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 just be polite...show respect....listen much .....talk little....ask questions when you need to....the only stupid question is the one not asked. – Larry H For me, this pretty much sums it all up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.