iron woodrow Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 john, on your hammers, i am sure you would not simply control the throttle, because you would get no motion! with your suggestion you could make a simple drop hammer, with the motion set in the up position, but if the lever was set in the down position, you would have a strong clamp and that is it. with no chance of lifting the tup, even with a pressure relief/bleed off.... on my hammer, having the lever set in the mid way position vitually stops the steam flow, as neither port is allowing steam through, so you have only gravity acting on the tup (i am guessing this is the "lock" of which you speak). if you were to have a separate switch/treadle for the bleed off, you may as well have one for the throttle and not have to throw a new device into the fray. i am considering an "over limit" style setup, so the treadle can move the valve to the full blow position, but depressing the treadle further might be made to adjust the throttle, therefore i could theoretically run it in the lightest throttle position, but stepping harder beyond that will cause the throttle to open further. therefore a "stomp" and release could be a single blow full throttle, or a slight pressure could send it down slow. i think the "steam lock" is ordinarily overcome by having a slight "slop" in the running gear, therefore a slight delay will cause the tup to move beyond the lock point. the valving on my small steam pump runs on this theory, as no slop causes it to stop..... insert "preparation to be proved wrong) clause here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 Thats what is so cool about IFI, one guy up before the crack of dawn on one side of the world and the other staring at the sunset on the other side of the world both contemplating these ideas! Thanks for your continued support and contribution to the quandary of control. John, the bleed off sounds interesting indeed but I'm not sure I would go to those lengths to solve the locking issue. The biggest reason being if any failure in that system occurred it could possibly damage the hammer by smacking the head. This hammer has a safety cap but up to what point it will work I'm not sure. I do think the Ken Z method has its place and I actually already have a connection in place to do so. In the first and second picture there is a small link on the treadle bar that attaches to the motion control arm. I can detach the adjustment from the treadle to the throttle and by manually setting the air flow I can use the hammer in treadle mode. I used the hammer with both the throttle and motion levers connected to the foot control. I get a single blow from light to hard depending on the throttle adjustment, it a bit spotty and hard to predict. I keep going back to the handle that Grant had set up on the left side of the hammer. Used as a override I can get it out of its locked position but I have to use a hand to grab it, I will try a chain to the foot control and see what happens. (Third pic) I built foot treadle that spans the entire front area yesterday so I can actually use it now. Woody, check out the pics on mine and how the two levers are connected, as I explained above, is this what you are considering in your plan? Not sure that any slop would help deter the lock up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 First of all, I have been assuming your hammer reciprocates on its own. That is why I suggested releasing top chamber air to get the tup to rise, believing that it would then reverse without working the control lever. I think iron woody refers to single blow behavior where the motion lever movement gives tup movement. Maybe I didn't understand him. Second, I intended to suggest only a momentary release of upper chamber air, just enough to get the tup to move so that the motion valve moves away from its center position. The air released would be small so that there would be no dramatic movement to induce upper contact. If the valve I suggested is toe controlled, just take your toe off to stop the air release. To test the idea you do have to drill and tap a hole for a hose barb. If it doesn't work a plug can be screwed in to replace the hose barb. Steam locking is a term I pirated out of an old steam hammer pamphlet and it means that after the motion valve lever (or treadle) moves the motion valve off center, the tup movement causes the valve to re-center itself. If there is no inertia effect the tup stops, stopping the motion valve, and stopping air flows. This is what is going on in Ken Z's videos when the treadle is moved (and then held constant) and the tup moves to it, and stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 Hey John, not to belittle the idea at all, my experience with pneumatics is very slim. After settling the treadle modification today I really had a chance to spend some time on the machine, I may just be xxxxxxx in the wind. The response with the treadle to throttle hook up was very good, I could get light cycling blows, hard cycling blows and one good hard smack. I also hooked it up treadle to motion control with the throttle set and I could position the ram anywhere in the stroke with as much force as needed. I video taped all the results and threw in hammer driving as the machine was intended to be used (the most control I have ever had over a hammer). I will try and get some vid loaded soon and you can judge for yourself B) I may go ahead and tap some holes in the Niles since it is apart and if the bleed off is needed it can be installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Really good news, DD. I sense your confidence factor has risen immensely--and that is surely a good thing. I very much look forward to your video and full explanation of your set up. So far IFI conversations have been super informative and I know from decades on the web blacksmithing sites that hammer knowledge has been advance immensely. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 It might seem redundant but like John, I love this thread, so much infos, ideas and open R'n'D... Thanx DD and you all the contributors ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 hey how is it redundant? :D hear! hear! on the video! yet i still cannot understand the throttle only treadle..... :blink: in any steam hammer the 'motion valve' needs to be moved at least in some way for motion to occur... hence the name... maybe the video will assist me on understanding what you mean.... when i was referring to slop, i did indeed mean in a reciprocating hammer, or in the development of a modification of a single blow to reciprocating.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Interesting to view from a different perspective, I didn't realize there was so much deflection in the treadle, I will have to do something about that today. I also will have to make a adjustable stop for the throttle to tie to the hammer (I just clamped it off to a beam in the vid). Time to get something HOT!!! [media=] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kehler Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Looking great! Makes me reconsider selling mine :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 that is real slick nice running hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Very interesting DD. Thanks for the video. Your shop looks really nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KjZitur Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Great video Danger!! Maybe this winter when the snowballs are hitting me in the hind end you'll let me come down and play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel.85 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 nice steam hammer video, hadn't seen this one before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 I'm glad to see Grant showed up to the party, I wonder what witty-sly comment he would have had :( Hey Ken, I might have them broke in by then, come on down. Thanks for all your comments, this has to be my newest favorite hammer! I forged my first doodad today, it started out as a 10" long chunk of 3" square. Two heats to draw, one to knock down the corners. The starting air pressure was 100 and would fall to 60 by the time I needed to reheat I'm using a 32 cfm compressor with around 350 gal reserve tank. Flipped it around a fiddled with getting a nice shape mostly single strikes for another few heats. Look I even got a little scale messed about! My friend took my dies to school and faced them off real nice, I'll break the edges and they will be good to go. Unfortunately my grader/concrete haller blew out his knee, I helped him home from surgery yesterday so my pour will be delayed another couple weeks. Starting to get busy again with a few jobs so play times about up, just when I was on a roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Sorry to read about your delayed pour. Nice dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 church window anvil and steam hammers.... we are running paralell lives danger..... :P wow you could do surgery in your shop! so clean! i am surprised that you are using only 32cfm... what is the cylinder volume of the hammer? has the piston been re ringed for air? yours is a 200lb is it not? i think mine is roughly 300lb (2 1/2 cwt) judging by tup volume calculations..) so you have inspired me to maybe go down the air avenue again...... why is it seeming to reciprocate when running only off the throttle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 Hey Woody do you by chance have a dog named Rascal? I would love to drive a choo-choo :P And come on, I showed a picture of some scale messed about! <_< I have my big air compressor piped in the the tank as well but its a bit overkill unless I have enough material hot to keep it busy. I do think 50 cfm would keep up fine, this machine is factory pneumatic, says right on the tag 80-100 psi air pressure. The bore is 5" with 16" stroke, they also built a 250 and 300 on the same frame just changed the size of the ram. It is built to reciprocate, the ram is linked to the motion valve via the sword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kehler Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Michael, what did you use in the packing gland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 that was my next question..... You seem to have a fair bit of air loss around the gland..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 I beg your pardon sir, my glad is in perfect working order. Nothing had to be repacked on the 200, but when I rebuilt the Niles I bought PTFE Teflon rope packing from MSC its not expensive and I never had a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Pretty dang cool Mike, I wanna come visit more every day... Spending days on the hammer and nights down listening to some southen music and local food sounds like a dream come true.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kehler Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I certainly wasn't implying anything :huh: Thanks for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 I can hook you up Larry, just remember fall is not only good weather for forging but also riding! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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