lupiphile Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Mr.Dillon Out of curiosity, why so much wood? is that customary? I'm contemplating doing a "proper" foundation for my 2-b( as opposed to just plate) and I'd be interested to your insights as to the advantage of more wood/ less wood. Living in philadelphia, the post industrial wasteland that it is, I would have no problems getting a surplus of nice old growth hardwood, if there would be an appreciable benefit. Take care, Matt P.s. do you hire apprentices to follow you around with a vacuum cleaner? How is it possible your constantly engaged in these giant projects without the slightest bit of clutter? is this just your show shop? Is there a filthy sweaty walled sub-basement, rife with snagletoothed coke-addled minions producing the future of forged sculpture, and custom motorcycles aplenty? It just boggles the mind....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Matt, the first picture of a foundation plan I saw was on Anvil Fire, but here is a better source- http://www.archive.org/stream/machineryfoundat00crof#page/538/mode/2up Even shows how to install on the FOURTH floor! :o I am probably a bit light on the concrete but I won't be running 3 shifts unless you count the snaggletoothed coke-addled minions B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Alright, I just weighed the anvil, sow block and bottom die to be 5500 pounds. Thats just over 7 to 1 ratio. I haven't weight the wood but calculating 60 pounds a square foot the 3'x4'x3' oak base would be another 2000 which would be 10 to 1. In addition I poured almost 5 yards (4' thick) under that, another 15000 pounds which equates to 30 to 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Michael...who is that young kid in the hole in your first photo? Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1050 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 COOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Hey Ric, thats blister, he shows up after the work is done :lol: Actually, one of the hardest working person I have ever met, has his own shop, goes to school for machining three days a week, works for a machinist gets in trouble around my shop and only 20yrs. old to boot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 DD, is the crete and the timber all tied to the anvil? Must be given that you included them in the mass ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Not tied to, just sitting on, you could take it bit further. It's sitting on the earth so thats 13,169,533,693,875,800,000,000,000.0 pounds soooo thats 1.75593783 × 1022 TO 1 :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Not tied to, just sitting on, you could take it bit further. It's sitting on the earth so thats 13,169,533,693,875,800,000,000,000.0 pounds soooo thats 1.75593783 × 1022 TO 1 :PI almost responded by saying this but it got to complicated to figure out how deep in the earth the molten core is and how much mass the cone shaped area that would help your anvil ratio...... I do not think the entire earth counts though. Only the solid part under the anvil. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 I have read the chapter on foundations that you referenced for us. It should be mandatory reading. Good research on your part. Thank you. Certainly seems that old time manufacturers went up from 10:1 to 15:1 mass ratioes. Or higher. The need for foundation mass falls as the mass ratio rises, and with less foundation comes less foundation maintenance over the long term (timber deterioration). Steel and cast iron are expensive, but so is concrete and labor. I certainly favor new hammers having big mass ratioes. The beauty of the reference book is that it teaches accomodation for the older hammers and why. I believe that not attaching the anvil to the material below it is okay as the chapter author indicates (with a fence around the anvil base), however I do not think it increases the mass ratio, per se. It accomodates the ratio that you have. The timbers keep the "bouncing" minimized and the concrete absorbs the shock. The timbers are going to shrink from moisture reduction as they age. They shrink across the growth rings. Timbers do not shrink in length. Something not mentioned in the chapter, but worth considering as you set the machine height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 If I recall, most oak species shrink from 4% to 5% from green to kiln dried. Once dry they move slightly less than 1% seasonally of course greatly affected by local conditions. This is across the grain, timbers do shrink slightly along their length but it's a very small amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 14, 2012 Author Share Posted July 14, 2012 Well John my research is a bit spotty at best and I tend to go things head strong without much regard for history, found this book over on the machinist forum. The wood was not kiln dried but has been covered for years, considering different types of sealer for the wood at this time, any preferences would be appreciated. Back to the linkage I found this drawing by Art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 The timbers are going to shrink from moisture reduction as they age. They shrink across the growth rings. Timbers do not shrink in length. Something not mentioned in the chapter, but worth considering as you set the machine height. It is hard for me to read the small print on my screen but I read fig.605 on pg 548 as specifically stating "timbers on end" and is drawn accordingly and also the drawings in figs 602 and 604 seem to show the same grain orientation. fig 603 shows timbers laid flat but the timbers are not setting on concrete, they go all the way through to the ground as a "separate" unit. It is an awesome book, I love it. Thanks for posting it. smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Art Jones demonstrated at Ashville ABANA in my distant memory and had a video of some big machinery in one of the halls. I was such a newbie that the shock and awe weren't fully appreciated. His linkage is interesting fer shure. Thanks for your sketch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 14, 2012 Author Share Posted July 14, 2012 As per the book, most of the on end orientation are set under the drop hammers, I feel that more shock absorption is important in my application, when I had it set up before it literally shook the ground for 100'. My soil quality is great and the monolithic pour will capture everything as a unit without the risk of seperation. I am thinking about a cam actuated lever on the throttle link in Art's drawing that would raise the ram in instead of the ball valve as in Grant's set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmk Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Hi Michael, I am a timberframer and met you at a Bealer meeting at your old shop around 8 years ago. If the beams were covered and did not get much airflow around it , it can take a long time for a beam to reach its equilibrium moisture content. That is the moisture content that the beam will not shrink any more. That changes during the year as your humidity and temperature changes. Almost all of your shrinkage starts from the end grain, so you primarily want to seal the ends, any good paint will work. The wood that is below ground will most likely not shrink any more because the humidity and temperate is probably stable. You should buy some borates, either timbor, hybor, etc and spray to help with bugs and rot. I am not familiar with the bugs in Georgia but for $10 I spray everything in borates everywhere I work. It is cheap insurance. You will want to spray before painting the ends. You do not need to paint the whole beams, just the ends, but spray everything. Most of your movement in the wood will be in the wood above ground if the temperature and humidity below ground is stable. If your wood stays above 20% moisture content under ground, the wood will rot. Also this depends a lot if the wood is white oak or red oak. White oak is a lot more rot resistant. Also if you have the hearts of the wood in the beams you will get a large check from the center to the closest edge which can distort the shape of the beam. A beam that is free of the heart will not have a heart check. If your wood is white oak that would be great and if you could orient it upright you would be a lot better off for your base remaining consistent in height. Also put a waterproof layer between the concrete and wood. Concrete will wick ground moisture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Thanks, The wood is red oak, was under cover with good air flow, no sign of rot but it definitely has bugs. The whole block is tapered from bottom to top just in case removal is necessary and I will add a 1/2" layer of foil covered styrofoam sheathing around the entire block to separate it from the concrete. At his point I am shooting for 1/2" before the safety line, (manufacturers line marked on the guide that shows safe distance from bottoming out the ram) As I remember it has another 1" before bottoming after the safety line but I double check. I was hoping to pour a foundation outside for a 1 ton 20' jib crane at the same time as the hammer foundation but with all the rain I might have to delay the pour. Looks like the 200 gonna go in first so I can figure out the design for my treadle link on both hammers. I can probably run it a bit without risk of damage to the footing, should be fun B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Dillon, You might want to look at Sherwood Williams Deck Sealer as a choice. I am using it here on my new deck up here in MI. It comes highly recommended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 The wood is red oak, was under cover with good air flow, no sign of rot but it definitely has bugs. The whole block is tapered from bottom to top just in case removal is necessary and I will add a 1/2" layer of foil covered styrofoam sheathing around the entire block to separate it from the concrete. Are you going to have a way to grab the wood block and pull hard on it? I would give it a couple of "cradles" made of 1/4x3 flat with a hole in each end that you could attach to in the future. Having slightly tapered sides will make the difference of coming out or not. smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Good idea Smith, I hope I never see the day but it's good to prepare. Just measured 3" from the safety line to the point of bottoming out, makes sense because the bottom air port still needs room to send the ram up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Matt, the first picture of a foundation plan I saw was on Anvil Fire, but here is a better source- http://www.archive.o...ge/538/mode/2up Even shows how to install on the FOURTH floor! :o I am probably a bit light on the concrete but I won't be running 3 shifts unless you count the snaggletoothed coke-addled minions B) PDF here for the above book: 51 meg so only for fast connections. http://ia700409.us.archive.org/17/items/machineryfoundat00crof/machineryfoundat00crof.pdf Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 When we were doing some precasting years ago we put about 5 degree draft on the inside form then put 2 1/2 inch pipes thru it. when we wanted it out we hooked up the air hose to the pipe popped it right out. A few hundred square inches at 150 psi gives alot of push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin W Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I like roofing tar as a coating for underground posts, both wood and steel. I don't think it ever really degrades ... or dries, which could be a problem what with the pounding and the squishing and the hot stuff and all. I'm happy for ya D.D. ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I like roofing tar as a coating for underground posts, both wood and steel. I don't think it ever really degrades ... or dries, which could be a problem what with the pounding and the squishing and the hot stuff and all. I'm happy for ya D.D. ! Under my 3B I used tar on the wood and then wrapped it 4mil plastic. I had lifting bolts in mine and placed them where they could remain. I can not think when I would ever need to pull the wood out, but it is an option I think. Anyone ever place a 6B Nazel..if so I'd like to talk to them about what is really required. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 this thread comes at the perfect time for me, i am in the planning stage of my steam hammer foundation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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