Blacksmith and Machinist?

[frogvalley]

Stupid question I know, but after looking at another post here, I thought I'd try to drag out a few more of you.

How many other blacksmiths out there are machinists as well? Most of the sources that I know say that blacksmiths of the past were quite often at least familiar enough with a metal lathe to make the things that needed to be machined for repairs to both his and others tools.

However I find that not one in ten of the actual blacksmiths I know in this day and age actually run or own a lathe.

I see some of you do have machines already, but wondered what kinds/ types you might have. Frog Valley has a complete older machine shop with a benchtop Atlas Lathe with all the trimmings and a vertical/horizontal mill that is turn of the last century. Both come in handy for repairs to power hammers and more.

I recommend at least a familiarity with these tools as cold working of forgings is often the finishing touch that is required, and the repair capabilities of both are obvious benefits to any shop.

[irnsrgn]

If you check into the source of the term Machine Shop, you will find that the first use of the term was in reference to Blacksmith Shops, that had machines to help the smith with his work. And besides the forerunners of modern machine tools were more than likely either invented by blacksmiths or in some way modified to perform a specific job. Just be careful as some of the (modern machinists) may have a heart attack or become violent if they think you are serious. After all how could you compare them to some lowly person who gets filthy dirty and makes things with a hammer.

[Ten Hammers]

I very definitely will agree with you Junior. City shops might have been one thing and country another. Don't misunderstand me. Smiths were machine men to the point that they invented the tools that built the world. All smiths were ( are ) not created equal. Modern machinists environments are really nice places for the large part. Well lighted, clean environments. Level, painted cement floors. There are shops that are similar in nature to this but they are also a welding shop and perhaps have other issues ( hydraulic hose machines and assembly areas for other goods produced ). These shops may have 4-5 employees and a bookkeeper ( perhaps owners wife ). These shops may also have an area to build hot rods ( paint too ). Most that I have seen have no forge or even anvil. They will have benders and presses, high speed tapping machines, lathes, mills ( some cnc perhaps ). Of course drills and perhaps a small surface grinder, shaper etc for various needs. Most that I have met in this venue have no hot work experience.

My earliest memories of shops are blacksmiths. The first was Forrest Robinson of Ellston, Iowa. He had a small shop with forge, small line shaft running on a gas motor, electric welder and oxy/acetelyne. He had a drill press and large wheeled grinder that ran off of the lineshaft ( as did the forge blower ). Dad took the multitude of the repairs to Forrest. I grew up and went to school with his Grandsons.

The second shop was that of Gilmour Barbour ( rural Kellerton Iowa ). Gilmour had a bigger shop and more stuff. Gilmour had a cast firepot made from something, can't recall. The tuyere was nothing more than a tee of cast sewer pipe. Inside the pot there was a rain cap that went on vents. THis cap was I guess 3/4" up from the bottom of the bowl ( bowl being I guess 8" diameter). Ash dump on bottom of tuyere. Blower was a Hoover vaccuum and control was from a Singer Sewing machine. Also had an airgate with butterfly. Beside this forge was an anvil that now belongs to Gilmours son ( unknown anvil brand but I'm guessin about 175 lbs ). Also in forge area was a 30 lb Kerrihard hammer that now resides in my shop. Forging area was really about the size of Juniors shop. Gilmour was born in 1880's some time. I really need to visit his grave to find out exactly when. The balance of his shop was dedicated to welding and machines. Drills, lathes (2), shaper, trailer welding rig ( with oxy acet as well ). Last time I saw Gilmour in the shop he was 85 or 86 and he had just crawled out from under a combine with an electrode holder in his hand after welding up something. A true pioneer in Ringgold County Iowa history as was Forrest. He (Gilmour )would say that yes he had a forge but was not a blacksmith. He would also say that yes he had lathes ( one with a mill table) but was not a machinist. He ground a million sickles with a small electric motor that hung on a cable that was attached to a trolley. Sickle bar sat on stands below the trolley. Motor had handles and a stone. On/off switch and a reversing switch. Sparks always went away from him in this manner. Very humble man but opinionated, yes. He could weld it. He could braze ice cream to cow patties. If he couldn't fix it, he'd send you on down the road. Forrest was of the same thread but different. Both were honest men of integrity, skill and ethics. We all have personalities. These men were my early mentors. I can only hope to be a shadow of them in life. I can only imagine visiting Strasil Brothers shop in my youth ( having been there later in my life ). Quite a place indeed.

[yesteryearforge]

I am a machinist by trade and clearly see where most modern machines were invented by blacksmiths and evolved into the machines that we use today.
I also have a pretty complete machine shop along with a fabrication and welding facility. Actually I have 2 machine shops with manual and cnc capabilities.
What drew me blacksmithing was being able to see how this all evolved from that simple statement ( by hammer and hand all trades stand ).
I dont contribute to this thread because I do this for a living and the last thing that I want to do in my time off is talk about MACHINING.
I try to leave the modern stuff at the plant and keep it simple at the forge.

[frogvalley]

I have no real interest in modern machining practices, but the older tooling such as I have, some of which runs from the same line shaft over head, is very cool and much more in keeping with the time frame of all the other blacksmith tooling that I have. I am a blacksmith and sculptor for a living but still find time to chat about blacksmithing, unless of course I have been at the forge and hammer all day. Sometimes its just too much.

Knowing ALL of the techniques and tools required to work iron, including blacksmithing and machining do go hand in hand though. Since there is no one around here that I would trust to fix my power hammers and other machines, necessity is the primary reason to keep a working machine shop.

[HWooldridge]

I have a lathe and a vertical mill in addition to my forging equipment and make income from the entire shop so they are tools as part of a whole. Like "Yesteryear", I work in a screw machine shop by day so have an exposure to it there, which helps me at home on some jobs.

I'm quite sure the machine trade came from blacksmiths because they were the traditional authorities on metal working. Many inventors in the last two centuries were blacksmiths or the sons of 'smiths. Of course, you have to toss in those individuals who were gunsmiths, armorers, etc., but the trades are all related.

It is now considered an insult to call a machinist by the name, "blacksmith", (theoretically because he doesn't understand precision measurement) but it's pretty hypocritical to do so since that's where the trade originated - I've had this conversation with several machinists and most just shake their heads.

[Ed Thomas]

If you like working with metal, it is all one. You can form an object by removing what isn't that object from the original piece (machining), by building it up in sections (welding), by compression (forging), by molding (casting), or any combinations of any these. They all have their place. The point is to look at what you want as the finished object, and select the tools and methods that accomplish that the best. NOT what you are most comfortable doing, but which is the most appropriate. Then you will choose to learn the skills as you need them.

Of particular interest to me is that old, fairly large machinery for machining is MUCH cheaper than old large machinery for forging. Supply and demand, of course. For less than the price of one Beaudry power hammer, I have two lathes, two milling machines, and two shapers with oodles of tooling.

Machining tools are a big help in a forging shop. I just got done making my larger Beaudry dies using my 16" Steptoe shaper which cost me $100. I made a replacement roller bearing for it using a 13" x 8' 1911 Southbend lathe I got basically for free. Both the 3 hp Gorton vertical mill and small Hardinge horizontal mill have paid for themselves many times in doing odd jobs related to projects, but neither one was very expensive.

I have no formal training as a machinist. That means I ask a lot of questions of machinists and read a lot of books. And I take my time, practicing with focus. It's worth it.

I only have limited formal training in welding. That means I ask a lot of question of professional welders and read a lot of books. And I take my time, practicing with focus. It's worth it.

I have lots of training in blacksmithing. That means I ask a lot of questions of other professional blacksmiths and read a lot of books. And I take my time, practicing with focus. It's worth it.

It's all good.

[HWooldridge]

Well said, Ed...the end product is what's important.

BTW, how's the Beaudry coming along?

[metalmaster1766]

i was a machinist/tool maker for almost 20 years, had to quit because of illness. what got me into blacksmithing, the fact that i missed machining so much, i ran across the Gingery machine shop from scrap on the internet, and built me the lathe just so i could make metal chips again

i then used my foundry furnace as a forge and havent stopped either since. im always casting something or forging something, mainly knives now,

now i have a small machine shop mainly consisting of turn of the century machines (1800's to 1900's) some of the best machines were built back then, they are slow but very good

oh yeah, i doesnt bother me, being called one or the other, i just tell people im a master of metal LOL, i do it all

metal is metal, how its worked isnt the point, just as long as its made right, have fun

Ron Smith

[ThomasPowers]

I've met Rob Gunter who used to be the staff blacksmith for Sandia National Labs---think aerospace and nuclear---not exactly lo-tech fields but they still found that having someone able to forge preforms could save money and time (but I repeat myself) when using exotic top dollar alloys.

Jock Dempsey over at anvil fire claims that a good general purpose blacksmith shop should include a mill and a lathe.

The switch to CNC did floot the used market with old hand controlled machines; wish I had stockpiled some when the peak of the flood was.

[Ed Thomas]

Hollis: The #7 Beaudry is almost finished. I've been saying that for awhile, but today I put the brake pad on and did some final marking for the dies. The only major item left is to heat treat the dies, which is a bit scary because I have so much work in them. I have a pretty nice roomy electric heat treating oven, which I got from an auction for just over $300. It already proved its worth in treating the replacement roller bearing that was bad. I've been making a lot of tooth picks from 2" x 4"s as I do all the adjustments and test the die fitting.

You might remember that the sow block on this hammer was completely buggered up. A previous owner had run it with only a top die... no bottom die! I have no idea what they were doing with the hammer, but it seriously tortured the casting underneath. I had to grind and file over an inch of the block away, and then painstakingly file in the dovetail. If I could have gotten the sow block off, it would have made it a thousand times easier... just shape it up on the Steptoe. But that wasn't happening.

I should have been done years ago, but it never seemed a high priority while the smaller Beaudry was available. But that one is REALLY tired and needs overhauled so I need to quit goofing off and finish the #7... which is a much better machine anyway.

Sorry I didn't answer your question sooner... somehow I missed it!
Ed

[Ed Thomas]

Thomas Powers: Old machinery is still available quite cheaply, as long as you are willing to take stuff that is too large for the weekend 1-car garage tinkerer. The only reason manual machines are starting to get a little more scarce is because scrap prices have gone up enough to make it more worth loading and hauling. With disturbing frequency, the scrap price is higher than anyone is willing to pay for the machines. I got several of mine below scrap prices from people whol couldn't bear the idea of them being melted down and were actually grateful to pass them on to someone who intended to use them.

[HWooldridge]

Hollis: The #7 Beaudry is almost finished. I've been saying that for awhile, but today I put the brake pad on and did some final marking for the dies. The only major item left is to heat treat the dies.


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You might remember that the sow block on this hammer was completely buggered up. A previous owner had run it with only a top die... no bottom die! I have no idea what they were doing with the hammer, but it seriously tortured the casting underneath.


<>


Sorry I didn't answer your question sooner... somehow I missed it!
Ed

Embedded some comments in your note...

[Ed Thomas]

Hollis: The dies are made from S-7. H-13 would probably be an easier heat-treat, but I got a pretty good deal on the steel.

In this case, I don't think anybody used a plate or anything, because you could plainly match the destruction pattern in the sow block with the outline of the top die. My guess is that it was just used to mash and bend things cold.

[HWooldridge]

Ed,

Well, don't forget to post pics when you get it done - I can't wait to see your work.

If I can ask one more question, what did you use for the brake pad?

[Ed Thomas]

Hollis: It shouldn't be long. I can actually see the end! The brake material came from McMaster Carr. It's been so long since I ordered it, I actually don't know which material I chose, but I'm fairly certain it is the non-metallic stuff... look at item# 6175K136 (1/4" x 2") $6.14 per foot. I used their contact cement. I alsoused that to hold the replacement sleeve for the hammer guide, but don't know yet how it will hold up. I will say that having a new brake pad is amazing. That flywheel stops on a dime. I'm running out of dimes proving it.

[ThomasPowers]

Well the cost of the old machines in Detroit area during the peak change over was very little I even heard of a fellow who was paid to haul some away.

Unfortunately I am now in a thinly settled area without much embedded industrial base and used machines tend to be both expensive and extremely worn as well.

Why trips back to the rustbelt are still usefull.

Thomas

[Blacksmith Jim]

My Dad worked as a tool and die maker for most of his professional career. He's been very pleased to see me pick up a hammer and some hot metal. Though I don't know that he ever worked metal that way. One of my favorite hammers is a very light ballpein that he machined as a gift for my grandfather years and years ago.

[Jim Pennock]

I run a lathe for a living and I have one in my soon to be finished shop at home. Jim

[Dodge]

I have a Harbor Freight mini lathe. Does that count? lol I also have a power hammer. That's a machine! Oh yeah, I forgot about my drill press ;)

[ralphy]

I'm a millwright, but I cut, weld, machine, & smith also, and do paint & body
plus mechanic. I love all of it too!
To take a piece of metal and transform it in to something beautiful or useful
is truley satisfying.

[H&T]

To answer the original question, I have a range of machines: two lathes, radial drill, milling machine, hydraulic ironworker, several different types of saws and just about every type of welder. Plus a couple of power hammers. I make my living from working with metal. Lots of the equipment is fairly ancient, robust and serviceable, but not CNC. Some however is state of the art and up-to-date. For example synergic mig and AC/DC pulse tig. I use a combination of ancient and modern techniques. I don

[sdalcher]

I started out with an associates degree in tool and die making at Southern Illinois University(CTC). I have since added a few more degrees and teach at Ball State University now in an unrelated field.

I always enjoyed working with my hands and have been building up my shop for the last decade. I nowhave am Atlas 10in lathe, Atlas 7in shaper, Jet vertical mill, stick welder, TIG welder and many more smaller machines that just make life easier (belt sanders, drill presses etc.)

I actually made one of my belt sanders in high school, poured the castings and the whole 9 yards. I still use it after 20 years of service.

Over the last year I have cobbled together a foundry furnace (propane) and am currently working on a Waste Vegetable Oil system. I thoroughly enjoy the challenges of a good project that require a multitude of skill sets.

Thanks
Steve

[tbrforge]

I am a blacksmith, with a smithy build specifically for the forge, however, in this day and age I need more tools to meet a wide base of customer demands. 13" South Bend lathe, Vertical Mill, TIG, MIG, bandsaw, abrasive cut off saw, hand made break, arbor press hydraulic press, autocad station. It takes all of these and wishfully more to make ends meet. I have done frame work on trucks, custom headers for motorcycles aluminum racing heads, gates, railings, statues, hardware, cast iron repairs. A I see it, a blacksmith of old didn't have the option to turn work away. I don't either.

[fat pete]

My pop is/was a toolmaker for 40 years, his brother a machinist for 44 yrs and I ran a planer mill with 4 /60 horsepower full indexing heads. It was one pwerful machine. We had to make all our own tools. It was very hard to work learn anything cause the gys who knew worke when it was piece rate so their tricks were secrets...I hated them...I ended up sellin geothermal heat pumps for 20 yrs. got sick got healed and started learning blacksmithin a couple of months ago. Dad is 83 and was talking the other day how 10 mins at the forge can save an hour at the bench. I try and keep it machineless just for simplicity. I do from time to time use belt sander, drill press and some sawing stock. I just like the smell, feel and results from steel and metal.

FP