flat lander Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 First of all Hello this is my 1st post I have been reading the forum and wow what information you guys are great. My situation is I live in California and the EPA laws here kill everything that anyone wants to do. They will not let me burn coal here so that is out. I have been useing Oxy/Acet. for my blacksmithing for quite some time (just a hobby) but now a door has been open for me to do some blacksmithing at the mountain man rendezvous in my area, they have not had a blacksmith for about five years and asked me if I would start at the camps. and since California will not let me burn coal what do you guys suggest ? Is Propaine cheaper that the Oxy/Acet. What ever I do I will need to be able to hide the way I heat the material. A Propaine forge I can probably hide inside of the forge chimney a torch is going to be harder to hide I think. I have looked at the Majestik knife forge and the diamondback 2 burner metal smith forge. Any suggestions on how I should go about starting. Any advice will be Appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Propane is the ticket....Way cheaper than oxy/ace cause propane is allot less than ace to begin with and you don't use bottled ox at all with a propane forge, just air.....If you got the bucks look into an induction forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat lander Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Propane is the ticket....Way cheaper than oxy/ace cause propane is allot less than ace to begin with and you don't use bottled ox at all with a propane forge, just air.....If you got the bucks look into an induction forge. From what I have seen with induction forging you need electricity and at the camps there is no way they will alow the sound of a generator everything is suppose to look like pre1840 era and nothing but coal does that . That is my delema how to hide the forge and still be able to do the work? The oil furnace looks good but someone mentioned bad smoke and that is what California will not allow. How bad does Charcoal smoke when it is burned in the forge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 charcoal..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
781 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I agree with Steve Charcoal but dont use briquetts you need cowboy charcoal if you buy or home made charcoal if making it. Cant you use coal as a hobby fire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 They were blacksmithing with real chunk charcoal about 2000 years before they started to use coal. (High/late middle ages according to Gies & Gies in "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel") and of course charcoal was still used for smithing until today in many parts of the world! So coal is NOT ACCURATE for mountain man smithing at the frontier, charcoal would have been what they used originally! When I do accurate medieval smithing I use charcoal. (and two single action bellows and a side blown forge) Try not to get "gourmet" charcoal that is not completely charred, (like mesquite). as it sometimes smokes. Real chunk charcoal does not smoke. You will need to alter a coal forge slightly to better use charcoal. I add a couple of firebricks to narrow and deepen the fire. Also charcoal tends to give off more sparks; letting it "dry" alongside the fire before adding it too the fire helps. You can also build a wood fire and transfer hot coals from it into your forge for a make it yourself go; but if they are fussing about smoke then store bought real charcoal NOT BRIQUETTES is the way to go. Also charcoal would be what mountain men smiths used out on the frontier as they didn't have access to coal! Try it at home so you can get a feel of how it works and how fast you go through it---tweaking the forge helps with that last! And remember both the viking era swords and japanese katanas were forge welded in charcoal forges so if you have problems getting stuff hot it's not the fault of the fuel! I'm assuming you are using bellows since the hand crank blowers are post ACW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat lander Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 They were blacksmithing with real chunk charcoal about 2000 years before they started to use coal. (High/late middle ages according to Gies & Gies in "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel") and of course charcoal was still used for smithing until today in many parts of the world! So coal is NOT ACCURATE for mountain man smithing at the frontier, charcoal would have been what they used originally! When I do accurate medieval smithing I use charcoal. (and two single action bellows and a side blown forge) Try not to get "gourmet" charcoal that is not completely charred, (like mesquite). as it sometimes smokes. Real chunk charcoal does not smoke. You will need to alter a coal forge slightly to better use charcoal. I add a couple of firebricks to narrow and deepen the fire. Also charcoal tends to give off more sparks; letting it "dry" alongside the fire before adding it too the fire helps. You can also build a wood fire and transfer hot coals from it into your forge for a make it yourself go; but if they are fussing about smoke then store bought real charcoal NOT BRIQUETTES is the way to go. Also charcoal would be what mountain men smiths used out on the frontier as they didn't have access to coal! Try it at home so you can get a feel of how it works and how fast you go through it---tweaking the forge helps with that last! And remember both the viking era swords and japanese katanas were forge welded in charcoal forges so if you have problems getting stuff hot it's not the fault of the fuel! I'm assuming you are using bellows since the hand crank blowers are post ACW... I was going to make a box bellows and I have not made my fire pot yet should I make it deep 6to 7 inchs . is deeper better. I have a lot of rem plate around my yard so making the pot should not be to hard if I can get some advise on how deep and how big around. Thanks to all of you for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 If there are strict fire regulations, I don't see where charCOAl would be different than mined coal in the eyes of the law. I heard this story about Bob Bourdon, a blacksmith in the 1950's and 1960's and on, who was not supposed to have a smith's coal fire in Vermont. He made an appointment to see the governor of Vermont in person, made his case, and got a signed dispensation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajajoaquin Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 In San Diego's Old Town, there is a blacksmith shop which is supposed to look period correct. They are also barred from using coal (even though it wouldn't have been period correct to use it, as Thomas mentioned). I don't know why they didn't use charcoal, but I do know that they use coke. Unfortunately, that means they need a hidden electric blower to keep the fuel going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat lander Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 If there are strict fire regulations, I don't see where charCOAl would be different than mined coal in the eyes of the law. I heard this story about Bob Bourdon, a blacksmith in the 1950's and 1960's and on, who was not supposed to have a smith's coal fire in Vermont. He made an appointment to see the governor of Vermont in person, made his case, and got a signed dispensation. The fire usualy is not the problem here it is the smoke. We have a camp up by big bear and when I was camping years ago at the rendezvous we had a sign that said No Open Fires and about 5 feet from the sign someone always had a fire pit it drove the forest service guys nuts. Every year they would come through camp and tell the people next to that sign that they could at least move the fire about 10 feet from the sign. Rondezvous at least in So. Cal get special privileges unless the fire danger is real high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat lander Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Well I just got off of the phone with the California AQMD and they told me that If I wanted to put a nuclier power plant in my back yard that they could not do anythging about it but as soon as I leave my property and go on the road I am not allowed to burn any solid fuels this includes coal ,coke and charcoal. The California Air Resorces Board told me that I could not burn any coal or coke the charcoal question did not come up . AQMD also told we that I could cook with coal ,coke and or charcoal but that was it in California. I can forge with gases ( natral gas , propaine and oxy/act.) as long as I use less that 2,000,000 BTU's . So it looks like propaine it is . Anyone out there have a favorite small propaine forge that they use. I have looked at the Majestic and the Diamondback 2 burner units are there any others out there and which one would you guys pick to use. I am leening towards the diamondback unit that all three sides lift up on. Any opinions on what may be my best buy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Flatlander; can you tell me if I need to buy a dumptruck or a little 4 cylinder pickup? Which do I need? Do you see the issue? Without knowing what and how you plan to forge it makes it difficult for us to *GUESS* what would work best for you. Is efficiency and ease of transportation what's important or getting and maintaining welding temps? Will knives be the primary use or will you do heavy ornamental work? You know your plans; please share them with us. BTAIM may I suggest you try something easily transported and fairly efficient to make hauling propane bottles less of an issue and hold off on larger work for your home shop. 1 propane forge is seldom enough for a shop that does a wide range of items and even sometimes a shop that specializes---for a knifemaker it's often handy to have both a welding forge and a more efficient forging forge. Can you try out a couple of those forges at some shops relatively close to you? Test driving is a great way to see if you "like" a forge, could tolerate it; or wouldn't have it in the shop! I end up bringing a propane forge to *medieval* OUCH! events due to draconian fire bans out here and even so at one last year I was not allowed to set up until the County Fire Marshal showed up and allocated me a specific spot to use---nice guy we discussed it back and forth and came up with a spot that both of us liked, even if it was a bit out of the traffic flow of the event. At another event only 2 people have an open fire dispensation: My Forge and the Renaissance Cook. We set up side by side which works well as I forge renaissance cooking tools in trade for being fed---had roast peacock for a dinner last time, this next time we hope to do a fancier set up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat lander Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 I am planning on forgeing 1/2" sq. stock for fire irons and display racks that will probably be the largest stuff that I forge at a camp. most of my work will probably be 1/4" material for S hooks and hangers. some file and damascus steel knife blades as well. As for forgeing axe heads I think that I am far from that at least at this point. I have been useing Oxy/Act for all of my blacksmithing but it is getting expensive. I have made about 9 knifes out of old files and 1 out of a lock shank with my torch and the people I have talked to say that a forge is much easier to use . I do not know of any blacksmiths in my area I am pretty much self taught over 10 years ago I made quite a bit of stuff for my wifes trade shop and the other 2 blacksmiths at camp were not happy and I promissed them that I would not sale my stuff. Well one of them passed away last year and no one has heard from the other one for over 5 years. So I kept my promiss to them. Thanks for all of the advice. it is helping me with some tough and hard decisions. I do not like to waste money on tools that are too small for what I need. Thanks agian for all of your time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewed Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 My 0.02$ on what you will be forging... You will not have time to do anything more than s-hooks. You will be too busy awnsering questions and putting on a show to do much more than that. When demo-ing, I don't plan on doing anything that I can't do in my sleep, and nothing that can't be set down and picked up latter. You will need to be able to forge and talk at the sametime. I do amost only s-hooks and j-hooks and give them to the kids that come and watch. Cost me next to nothing in metal and make them really happy. If you get to set up a table to sell from, have someone else with you to mind that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat lander Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 My girl friend will mind the store and I already know about the show and tell I was trying to build a blunderbuss shoulder gun 15 years ago and gave up on it at camp. I plan on doing most of my work at home when I do not have much else to do and I do not really want to have 15 different tools to do 1 job. I all ready have that at home now and I know that blacksmithing requires a lot of tooling everthing that I get must be pretty portable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Actually most smithing can be done with just a hammer, anvil, tongs and a postvise. It is just faster and easier to have more tooling. I teach my students to turn hooks with just the flat face of the anvil---no horn or jigs! Make sure your proposed forge has a pass through in the back door so you can work longer stock. 1/2" is not too large for most forges. Since I am demoing but not generally selling I often get roped into making oddball stuff on site---I've limited this a bit by only taking stock of certain sizes. (lots of 1/4" sq, less 3/8", rarely 1/2", plus the bucket of odds and ends pieces including some High C and some real wrought iron.) I generally don't do welding in my gas forge at events; but sometimes will when I can have a solid fuel forge. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 If you can cook over a solid fuel fire put a grill over part of your forge and if someone asks throw a hot dog, steak, etc. on it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Entrance Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Flatlander, sounds like you live in SoCal. I grew up in Big Bear, and remember running into the Mountain Men when my Scout troop was out hiking in the woods a couple of times. Good bunch of guys. This is the first I've heard of not being able to burn coal in California. I run my forge in my side yard (being considerate of the neighbors - always) and have not had a problem with the Air Quality police coming down on me yet. I figure if I wasn't allowed to burn it, the guy I buy it from wouldn't be allowed to sell it out of his store, and he sells about 10-15 tons a year. A friend of mine's favorite saying is, 'it's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission.' Just my $.02. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat lander Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Flatlander, sounds like you live in SoCal. I grew up in Big Bear, and remember running into the Mountain Men when my Scout troop was out hiking in the woods a couple of times. Good bunch of guys. This is the first I've heard of not being able to burn coal in California. I run my forge in my side yard (being considerate of the neighbors - always) and have not had a problem with the Air Quality police coming down on me yet. I figure if I wasn't allowed to burn it, the guy I buy it from wouldn't be allowed to sell it out of his store, and he sells about 10-15 tons a year. A friend of mine's favorite saying is, 'it's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission.' Just my $.02. ;) The California Air Resoorces Board guy told me yesterday that if I get 1 call in about me from anyone not just a neighbor that he would fine me $1000.00 for the first offence. The AQMD guy was a lot more friendly. I live in the out skirts of San Bernardino at the bottom of the mountains below Big Bear. Actually just up from you Private Entrance Hence my name Flatlander pretty much an insult name at the camps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Make sure the forge you choose is wide enough for the bending you plan on. Convenience bends are only convenient if taken when they should, but sometimes make the part wider than the opening on a propane forge. Having a slot up the side, or side access door will make this less of a problem. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat lander Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Make sure the forge you choose is wide enough for the bending you plan on. Convenience bends are only convenient if taken when they should, but sometimes make the part wider than the opening on a propane forge. Having a slot up the side, or side access door will make this less of a problem. Phil That is one of the reasons that I like the Diamondback 2 burner. All three sides come up on it so that it is almost totaly open. I do not think that I need the three burner unit for what I am doing. If I grow into big items then at least I will have a pattern to build a bigger forge latter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think that it depends on the location. Coal or coke is burned at Oktoberfest, Spring Conference, and Hammerfest. I think that Adams Forge burns propane. Ardenwood in Fremont burns coal, as does Wawona in Yosemite. Hidden Villa does not burn coal because of ash disposal issues, but there are no air restrictions. I know of a shop in Sunnyvale that burns coal. There is a shop in Mountain View (commercial pavement breaker sharpening) which burns propane. It is probably OK as long as no one complains, and if any one complains, it is not OK. Just like chickens. In the south bay, there is a 25 foot from every property line restriction. This means that 99% of the houses cannot keep them. But it is OK, even roosters, as long as the neighbors don't complain. One complaint, and they're gone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Entrance Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Flatlander, I didn't bother calling CARB or the AQMD. I just went ahead and started burning and banging. I was more worried about bothering the neighbors than anything else. I don't see how me burning or not burning 10# or so of coal on a weekend is going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things. But that's just me. I should have my forge rebuilt soon. You should come down and try it out when I have it squared away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat lander Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Flatlander, I didn't bother calling CARB or the AQMD. I just went ahead and started burning and banging. I was more worried about bothering the neighbors than anything else. I don't see how me burning or not burning 10# or so of coal on a weekend is going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things. But that's just me. I should have my forge rebuilt soon. You should come down and try it out when I have it squared away. That would be real cool. I have only watched from a distance never actualy worked with a real forge. I probably made a mistake in calling AQMD and CARB but since I want to take things on the road I tought I had better look into what the laws are. AQMD does not seem to be the problem it is with CARB. The guy was real nice to talk to but the underlying threats were pretty harsh. PM me some time and may be we could talk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Entrance Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Sure thing. Sounds very good, and I get where you're coming from. I was planning on having everything slapped together by this weekend, but having to take the kids to events evenings this week has slowed the process down. If I get REAL lucky, I might be able to get things working enough that I can run the forge Saturday or Sunday. I'm not anywhere close to really having a clue, but I've got an anvil and hammers and metal to beat on. It's enough to have some fun and try and figure things out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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