basher Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I am thinking about the possibilities of taking on an apprentice later on this year. I am interested in where I could find information about apprentice schemes ? who runs them for smiths? also pay scales and employers liabilities ? are there still formal blacksmiths apprenticeships? I know this is not directly guild but thought someone may know these things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Hi Owen, There used to be the NETS courses and subsidies run by the RDC which are supposed to be coming back again but in what form I am not aware of. You could also try the local Job Centre and see if they know of any schemes, Hereford College may be able to help out as they are involved with the NHIG training Or the Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths who do give out bursaries in s certain situations. Most apprenticeships as such seem to be geared towards farriery, and places for farriers are limited due to the system the farriers have. There are colleges providing courses for blacksmiths, but they do not worry about what the students do after they have left college, which is why the NETS course was good, as students were supposed to be working in the industry and the course was off the job training with certification on completion, and susidesed training whilst on the course. You could toddle along to the NHIG meeting at Holme Lacy on 12th February and see if you can turn up anything. Sorry I can't be of more help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 hey owen, i think all this stuff is a government hot potato at the moment, my husband keeps getting info from them encouraging him to take on an apprentice, with all the info regarding payment, insurance etc - i got the feeling it applied very generally, so the information was not specific for our business, unfortunately the type of work he does is not suitable, but like i said, i got the impression they want people, anyone, to take on apprentices, presumabley to keep the unemployment figures less embarrassing...? he is away at the moment, but when he returns ill try to see what the score was.. there were def some incentives... like john said - any of the above would SURELY provide lots of likely (desperate i should hope) candidates? good luck with it, i would have bitten someone like you's arm off when i were fresh out of school with blacksmithing dreams in my head!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 yeah just asked - its just a gov apprenticeship scheme which you can find online, you go on a list with your requirements, and they approach colleges etc on your behalf - he also said there is a standard rate that your meant to pay them, which seems very low! and that they have lowered h and s standards slightly, loosened the grip to make it slightly easier for employers to facilitate hope thats of some help . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenbeast Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i'm curious about how official apprenticeships work(ed) is/was there government funding? a certain standard to be taught? certain timescales to be adhered to? i.e. a minimum employment term stuck to by both apprentice and master? There doesn't seem to be much around in this trade, that's for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This link http://www.blacksmithscompany.org.uk/Pages/History/History_Home.htm may explain a little why there is no specific requirements laid down for blacksmiths at the moment, although there are plans afoot to try to do something about it. Traditionally apprentice blacksmith's families had to pay to be a bound apprentice to a master 'smith for specified time period (Unless they were the 'smiths son or family member) This time lasted from 5 to 7 years. After they completed their time they then went to other blacksmiths as Journeymen to learn further aspects of the craft that their Master had not been able to teach them. Remember that travel was difficult in those times, and 'smiths basically catered for what the local areas needs were, and so the skills range they had to provide were limited. By going 'Journeying' on to various other 'smiths that skill range was iincreased. They would then either settle, start up their own business or continue as travelling jobbing 'smiths in other 'smiths workshops moving on as the workload demanded or how they felt at the time. The problem with 'smithing is the great variety of jobs based on the craft skills as you can see in the link to the Worshipful Company and the difficulty in defining what does a blacksmith do. The craft and apprenticeships fell in decline in the UK in the late 40's as an aftermath of the war effort, and a loss of the continuity of rural skills and the mechanisation of farming and the supplies of mass produced items that became available. There were apprenticeships still around, but mostly run by companies who specialised in various items and consequently an apprentice blacksmith may be trained to specialise in one branch/style of smithing, press work, drop stamps, heavy forging, etc and the fabrication techniques took off for replacing the gates and railings that had been removed for the war effort. with a few smaller rural business struggling to survive, The apprenticeships were indentured, but the qualification was probably specific to that particular branch of forging only, and did not necessarily transfer easily to another branch of the trade eg; you had cutlers and blademakers, both similar but with differences and classed as different trades. Due to declining local demand for blacksmiths CoSIRA (Council for Small Industies in Rural Areas) who had been tasked with trying to train and develop small rural industry had two travelling instructors (Frank Day and Tommy Tucker) who went around the UK teaching skills to rural blacksmiths as a lot of the skills had been depleted due to the older smiths being sent off to war etc and the skills they had were lost. (Bear in ind this was pre Motorway days and travel was difficult) This travelling system which sourced many of the potentially viable forges, and basically trained the local owners, was then replaced by the NETS system whereby the trainees/apprentices to these basic smiths could broaden their skill range, they would travel to Salisbury on a regular basis where they stayed for a week or more to learn skills, and then go back to practice and improve on what they had learnt in their employers workshop, and this system was very successful for employed trainee blacksmiths. Unfortunately this system was closed down as government cuts and the introduction of NVQ's took effect Hopefully NETS or similar is being reintroduced and apprenticeships being talked about. How effective these are going to be remains to be seen Meanwhile we at the Blacksmiths Guild will continue to promote blacksmithing and pass on the traditional skills to those who want to learn and practice them. We do have many students that go on to start up their own business or go on to the College courses that are currently available, although places at the more effective ones are very limited. I hope this has been of interest even if it has not directly answered your questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenbeast Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thanks for the detailed reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 I have been phoning around various smiths know that employ other blacksmiths and the general comment in this climate is that taking on a fully employed smith (at any pay rate) is such a risky business that it is to be avoided. I have been recommended to make sure I only employ scedule D employees (those that are self employed) and to make sure I am not their sole employer . my specific problem lies in the speciality of what I do , If I were to fine fully trained up experienced blacksmith they would not be able to do the work I do without completely re training . so I may as well start with a youngster ....... In the absence of a rigid training program of any kind it leaves the relationship between master and apprentice up in the air..... or at least open for discussion. as far as future prospects for an employable blacksmith the paper of an apprentice ship or college course would really count for nothing as far as future employment was concerned ( I know I would want to see hands on work from a prospective employee).So I guess to an extent training someone up to the job is a lot more beneficial to them. the general running of my business leaves the workshop unproductive at least 50% of the time and that is a big waste ... hey ho.we shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 yes its not straight forward because you def dont want to be doing their PAYE and all that, but if theyre self employed theyre likely to be a bit older and either lacking motivation, a common problem with employees, or thoroughly desperately motivated and will set up in competition the minute he she has learned your stuff! i suppose its just maybe not such a good situation these days for a one man band? also often people used to have a few apprentices in rotation, but you need lots of work for that dontcha?... it all kind of a shame though isnt it - this kind of thing should still be do - able..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Basher - a few weeks ago, I attended a talk by someone from 'Apprentices for Business'. They basically sort everything out for you, it seems, kind of like an agent - deal with all the HR issues etc etc. You have to pay the apprentice, but the rates are seriously low - something like 2 or 3 per hr I think (as they're not really working as a very effective employee of course). Anyway, its not specific to blacksmithing, but the guy had a lot of interesting stuff to say, and taking on an apprentice now seems like a much better idea than it did before I listened to him! (That's in general, not necessarily through these guys - although the idea of having the management / HR / pay / legal headaches removed from the equation does seem like a good idea). Maybe get in touch with them: apprenticesforbusiness.co.uk The guy's name was Paul Lamacraft - email paul@(the website address shown above) . I have his phone if you want it via PM. Seemed like a good guy to deal with. Cheers, Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendall P Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 If i lived closer i would definatly be interested in a unpaid apprenticeship with Mr Bush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratel10mm Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Hi Owen, and happy new year to you. I'd personally fight Longstrider for the opportunity, myself! However, I'm i) asuming to want a youngster & ii) obviously not in the UK anymore. For what it may be worth Forgemaster (Phil) has tried a couple of adult apprentices & found it didn't work for him (see the Get Hammered at Moony's thread from last year). In my own case, The one time I've had a mature apprentice I found him a great worker & generally a good student, but struggled with remembering he was an apprentice, not the decision maker. It seems these days youngsters don't understand that apprentice isn't a status, it's a rank. And if they don't want to be the sweeper, tool carrier & tea maker, they'd better ascend the ranks as quickly as possible! I suspect BB may be a useful place to advertise for an apprentice if you decide to do it. With your reputation there, there's bound to be more than one member who'd like the opportunity, either for themselves or one of their children. BABA as well, of course. As you know there's a listing of smiths who are willing to host or offer apprenticeships. It may be worth adding yourself to the list? For me, I wish I'd had this opportunity back when I left school. At the time, the craft resurgence hadn't really got started & everyone assumed Blacksmithing was a dead trade. The career guidance officers were utterly useless - probably still are in respect to 'out of the pigeonhole' career opportunities. Several years later, I discovered there was a blacksmith at Culham, 10 min's drive from me & had been all the time! By that time I was well ensconced in refrigeration & anyway was too old to become an apprentice (here in Oz we still have a formal apprenticeship scheme for pretty much every trade, & it's common to have mature age apprentices changing careers as you need to be licenced for most trades - for which you have to be qualified). It wasn't until it all went Pete Tong for me at work that I re-evaluated my options, took a couple of Bob Oakes' courses, one of Peat Oberon's, and one of yours (iirc I was your first student when you started your school. When was that? '08?). Now I'm still a hobbiest & very much a beginner due to various constraints, but I'm finally on the path! What all that ramble is trying to say is, go talk to the local careers guidance officers & make them aware, so that maybe a kid who'd be an asset to you doesn't end up doing something they find boring, but bill paying. As I mentioned, there is still a formal apprenticeship scheme in Oz. Moony lectures at his local TAFE (CFE to you & me) & could certainly get you a copy of the curriculum, which may help as a guide for your apprentice until the NETS is reinstated. I'm sure Phil would tell you how it works from the employer's perspective as well. In the meantime, here's a couple of links that may prove useful:http://www.sit.nsw.e...ia_Index_ID=111http://hsc.csu.edu.a.../Blacksmith.htmhttp://www.bremer.ta...0&ins_spec=true All the best & good luck with it mate. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomN Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I would be interested if the money was right. (sadly can't work for free) Certainly wouldn't cause any problems if I could help it. Will watch this thread with interest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotset Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 i would love an apprentice but it would have to be an old style type where the family paid you to take on the child who then took up residence under the fire or in the roof and worked day break till dark "as i do now" for at least ten years ;>) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 If I were to go down this route I would consider a self-employed person to do piece-work in my forge, or arrange rental of workshop space. I started out this way, and was very lucky to find an accommodating smith to rent space from, as well as do piece-work for, and receive guidance from. But then that was a very informal arrangement that relied entirely on our perception of each other as trustworthy people, a state as yet undefined, I expect, by EU legislation (etc. etc. blah-blah-blah). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick law Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 ther is a few collees now running courses on blacksmithing, central sussex and canterbury. they would be able to help with apprenticeships if you contacted them direct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 ther is a few collees now running courses on blacksmithing, central sussex and canterbury. they would be able to help with apprenticeships if you contacted them direct I have a non formal arrangement going on so all is sorted for me and other Owen who is attending the 10 week block relaese at hereford. there are no apprenticeship in UK for blacksmithing. college classes yes but apprenticeships no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Where in Canterbury? I heard that Canterbury college were doing a smithing course but I think that's at the Thanet campus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenbeast Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 canterbury campus will be offering a full time blacksmithing course next year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Sorry to divert the thread further but this seems to be the "blacksmithing" course Canterbury College are offering...http://www.cant-col.ac.uk/studying-with-us/Courses/full-time/engineering/ENGINEERING-LEVEL-3 Looks like it's part of a general engineering/metal work course and only 2 days a week. Something's better than nothing I guess but my memories of Canterbury College still make me shudder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOONY Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 hello Basher we have not met up yet my name is Glenn moon i am in Australia i have had many apprentices in Blacksmithing over the year but i live here also i am part time college teacher in industrial Blacksmithing i believe that the college is Hereforshire has formal classes if you talk with them they might be able to help you aslo good to see you smelting iron i have been smelting iron for about 17years but its a funn thing no money in it just for laughs to make wootz cakes from the iron well if you ever over here you be most welcome in my workshop i have a 7CWT massey and a few anyang and a few hydraulic presses hope one day to get back over to uk moony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOC Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 G'day Basher, this aussie gov website might have some general helpful hints, in between the plug for funding offers; http://www.australianapprenticeships.gov.au/ AndrewOC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 thanks for the posts. Moony, If I am ever over your way I would love to visit, and you would be most welcome here if you are ever on this side of the planet. as an update. I did have someone here for what I would call long term work experience, it worked out ok . they left to continue their craft at Hereford doing an artist blacksmithing degree. when the blacksmithing apprentice ship scheme comes back to life I will look again for another apprentice and do it properly (possibly) I found the whole experience a mixed blessing and defiantly lost out on a great deal of my work time and all of my at work private space (where I do my best work, free of other things to pull me away) I think what I need is a part time person ...? my version of bladesmithing is so personal and specific that a trained blacksmith was really not a lot of use to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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