Steeling Wrought Iron

[dickb]

I have some 3/4 inch wrought iron and would like to steel it.
The wrought iron looks pretty good, bends without cracking, no signs of delaminating.

I haven't had any problems forge welding the wrought iron to itself.

I'v been lucky and a local shop has given me some brand new automobile coil and leaf springs.

Any suggestions how to forge weld some automobile leaf spring steel or automobile coil spring steel to the wrought iron.

Thanks

[John B]

To what purpose? There is loads of advice here on the various forums, particularly the blademaking section.

Basically get the pieces prepared, get them hot enough, at welding heat, lightly forge into position to start the weld, then forge to consolidate the weld. With or without the use of flux, reheat to welding heat as necessary..

[Frank Turley]

It is oft said that one can weld wrought iron at a bright sparking heat, what the English term a "snowball heat." That is true, but that doesn't suggest that you ALWAYS should weld at that heat. Good thing too. High carbon steel won't stand a sparking heat; it will crumble like a Keebler cookie. In welding steel to iron, the heat is ideally a non sparking "sweating heat."

We don't know what you're up to. In the pre mild steel days, edge tools were often made of wrought iron and the steel was inserted into a hot-split cleft (bird's mouth, so called), as with a felling axe or hatchet. On a broad axe, the steel was fagot welded to one side for the beveled cutting edge. Hammer faces were welded on, etc.

[WmHorus]

Kinda Curious where you are at.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

You don't "steel wrought iron", you steel a tool. Like steel a chisel or steel an axe etc.

[MattBower]

Yeah, it depends on what you're trying to make. I have welded high carbon bits into wrought iron tomahawk heads, and have made san mai laminate with wrought iron on the outside and HC in the center. It's even possible to carburize your wrought iron to make it steely. There are many different techniques.

[KYBOY]

We have made a lot of axes and hawks out of wrought with HC steel cutting edges..Even made a few with the poll steeled liked a hammer face..It has to be jump welded on but works just fine..Heres one I made a long time ago.Id like to add that normally I like to forge down ears on a slit&drifted head but this was left this was intentionally for other reasons...Wrought body with a HC steel cutting bit and a chunk of 1045(I believe) jump welded on the poll..You can see the steeled poll because of the etch,,

[Drewed]

You don't "steel wrought iron", you steel a tool. Like steel a chisel or steel an axe etc.

Well, if there is some laying around that does't belong to you, one could steal it.... :rolleyes:

[dickb]

Maybe I left out one ot two details, so let me include them here.

I am planning to make a hawk made out of wrought iron with a HC cutting edge.

I remember reading that wrought iron is forge welded at a higher temperature than HC steel.
Will this create a problem,

I use 20 Muleteam Borax when forge welding mild steel.

If possible I am trying to get some advice from some more experience blacksmiths before I resort to using
the "Law of Sufficient Mistakes"

Thanks one and all

[aquamanlr]

KYBOY that is one super nice hawk !

[MattBower]

Maybe I left out one ot two details, so let me include them here. I am planning to make a hawk made out of wrought iron with a HC cutting edge. I remember reading that wrought iron is forge welded at a higher temperature than HC steel. Will this create a problem, I use 20 Muleteam Borax when forge welding mild steel. If possible I am trying to get some advice from some more experience blacksmiths before I resort to using the "Law of Sufficient Mistakes" Thanks one and all

The way I do that is to wrap the wrought to form the eye, then start welding in front of the eye and moving toward the bit. Leave sufficient unwelded wrought to form "flaps" that will totally envelop your bit. Shape the bit. Clean the bit, wire brush the wrought "flaps," heat and flux them both with borax. Heat the "flaps" good and hot, then quickly slip the bit in place and close up the fronts of the flaps to mechanically hold the bit in place. They should wrap around the front of the bit, so it's completely encased in wrought iron except at the very ends. That, plus a lot of flux, will help protect the bit at welding heat. (Remember, this is just one way to do it.) Flux it some more, then stick it back in the fire, get the whole bit end up to a smoky yellow, and start welding. Work from the center of the bit toward the edges to drive the flux out the open ends. Finish forging the bit end of the hawk. After you're done, trim or grind back the end of the hawk to expose the steel bit.

The lower the carbon content of your bit, the closer the welding temp will be to that of wrought iron. So it wouldn't hurt to use something in, say, the 60 point carbon range for the bit.

[ThomasPowers]

Keeping the steel piece from slipping out of place when you are welding it is typically a problem. Some sort of mechanical means of holding it can help---riveting through all 3 pieces was suggested by one old book I read. The modern version is to tack weld it with an arc welder on the top and bottom of the piece and then hot rasp or grind the weld off after forge welding it together.

Another method is to make some "teeth" on the piece to hold it in placed when fitted into the cleft---a way to "cheat" is to use a piece of old rasp that already has teeth on it. (if you are worried about the surface holding crud in the weld you can grind it clean except for a line of teeth to provide the "hold".)

[Francis Trez Cole]

in old gates that are wrought iron you want to keep the same type of material wrought to wrought iron is good. wrought iron to mild steel and you will get electrolysis opposing metals I saw a gate that was refurbished they added mild steel to wrought iron it lasted about 25 years and then all the steel was rusted through under the paint and the wrought was the same as the day it was built. Now the did the the same fix did not want to spend the money to do it right. In 25 years wrought iron will be in shorter supply and more expensive.

[Steve Sells]

in old gates that are wrought iron you want to keep the same type of material wrought to wrought iron is good. wrought iron to mild steel and you will get electrolysis opposing metals I saw a gate that was refurbished they added mild steel to wrought iron it lasted about 25 years and then all the steel was rusted through under the paint and the wrought was the same as the day it was built. Now the did the the same fix did not want to spend the money to do it right. In 25 years wrought iron will be in shorter supply and more expensive.

How does this cause electrolysis ? My understanding is both WI and steel have Iron in the matrix, and both have some carbon in the mix, so they are both similar metal alloys. Most likely the newer mild steel was not protected from the weather properly and its corrosion resulted from exposure to the elements. I do not see this as a galvanic action but a normal oxidation, having nothing to do with the contact with wrought.

If this were the case steeled bits for wrought bodied axes and such would have similar problems from their contact.

Also since wrought iron has not been made around here for 50 or more years is IS in short supply already.

[pkrankow]

This brings up the question of "How did the original gate material get damaged the first time?"

Phil

[bigfootnampa]

I agree with Steve. I think that the mild steel is simply less weather-resistant than WI... mostly due to the silica content typical of WI. I have seen cast iron sills at least 150 years old and with no paint left on them that were practically rust free! Cast iron having even more silica/slag can be even more weather-resistant than WI... but both types of iron might vary a lot from one batch to another.

[Francis Trez Cole]

the wrought was damaged from being not cared for and over grown by plants. WI is silica based and mild steel is carbon based. Even if you weld steel to stainless steel they are opposing metals and there the difference is only carbon content.

[Steve Sells]

the wrought was damaged from being not cared for and over grown by plants. WI is silica based and mild steel is carbon based. Even if you weld steel to stainless steel they are opposing metals and there the difference is only carbon content.

Not just carbon, SS has high amounts of Chrome (the definition of SS is having over 12% free chromium) and many have large amounts of nickel, But my point is galvanic corrosion aka electrolysis, is not really caused by varying grades of steels near each other. your assumption is incorrect, It is caused by electron exchange and new compounds being formed from the close contact of the metals. I am not picking on you, I am just trying to keep facts separate from myth.

[pkrankow]

For galvanic corrosion you need the material submerged in an electrolyte (seawater, wet soil, sewage, etc) being covered in plants may hold enough water to make regular corrosion much worse, but not likely enough to create a galvanic situation. Getting covered in compost and leaf litter may cause a situation that is suitable for galvanic corrosion, but it also causes a situation well suited for any type of corrosion.

Another case for galvanic corrosion is when a feature exists that traps the electrolyte, and is tight enough for the electrolyte to change between different areas, even if the metal is identical at both locations, but you still need an electrolyte. This situation can exist in riveted or collared joints as well as certain geometries of welded connections.

Phil

[ThomasPowers]

Cast iron does NOT have more slag than wrought iron. The slag is poured off leaving only the cast iron.

Wrought iron can have carbon contents from nearly 0 to over 1% It is not silica based but must contain ferrous silicates to be real wrought iron; but even very slaggy WI will generally be under 10% silicates and more generally under 5%

Mild steel is not carbon based as it should have less than 0.3% (30 points) carbon.

Lets keep the jargon straight!

[Francis Trez Cole]

That would be it then galvanic corrosion. Here in Florida there is so much salt in the air not much holds up. Thanks for the correction I here my friends that work on AC units talk about it all the time. and the gates was covered with a boginvilla for years

[Steve Sells]

No that is just simple corrosion. The reason I am making an issue of this, is that according to you we cant use wrought iron, OR even stainless along with normal steels because them being in contact with each other will cause corrosion, and this is not true. Salt will corrode any steel because that what salt does to steel.

Steeling high carbon steels onto wrought iron has been done successfully for hundreds of years with out any problems. I have no idea where you have gotten this idea, can I please see some proof ?

An example of my proof is the many axes steeled, as well as pattern welded blades using steels and wrought that exhibit no trace of galvanic corrosion. Also there have been more than a few SS/carbon Steel pattern welded blades that are not as old but they show no evidence of galvanic action either.

Many mild and high carbon steel will corrode fast in proximity to salt sea air.

[Francis Trez Cole]

Ok steve I did the checking as for swords and axes the reason it works is phase transformation 2 metals heated to a similar temp. are bonded on a molecular level (ref Aws fundamental of welding volume 1). as for welding electricial the bond is isolated and any gap is a place where environmental elements as little as .15v can be added and even 2 similar or like metals can be effected wrought irons silica melts before the welding rod dose this was also conformed by my brother who is a civil engineer. even though the 2 metals were exposed to the same salt air environment the paint was gone from the wrought iron was fine very little surface rust and the steel coated with paint was exploding out and spiting the paint from the inside.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Francis,yes,WI has higher anti-corrosivity qualities than alloys that differ from it.It's a fact.
Galvanics,and any undesirable reaction between the two are NOT a fact,and the strange and partial way in which you're trying to bring a factual basis under it is odd,i'm sorry.

I've once found a double-bit axe head in the river silt,it was probably deposited somewhere maybe 70 to a 100 years before.
The corrosion on both the steeled edges was very different from the body of the axe.The steel corroded deeper,the places under the flakes of loose rust were dark,almost black.The two metals very obviously were oxidising at a diff.rate,and in a diff.way.
But not the juncture of the two.The welds were very solid,and consistent,the two metals were coexisting beautifully.

[basher]

this is a shot of a saxon sword in the british museum. probably made from wrought iron , wrought steel and phosphoric iron,
what you are seeing is the materials oxidising at different rates over time .I think its beautifull and shows the inner workings of Saxon twisted steel and iron .