knots Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 How do those of you who live in really cold climates prepare your shops so that you can work all winter ? If it is not possible to forge all winter what is the forging season in your area ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Frosty; you're up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I have my forge area set up in the garage. I have a wood burner and just heat up the shop. Then I heat up a 6"X6"X1" pc of iron to red and lay it on my anvil to preheat the anvil. I use a livestock water tank heater to keep the slack tub thawed out. Some days it's just too cold to even try to forge. On those days, I sleep in, then get up and take a nap in the recliner, then go to bed early. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 We have had a hammer-in during a light snow - I had brought my portable forge and gear to demo, and you just heat a thick plate up and set it on the anvil a few times to bring the anvil temp up to, say room temp and begin forging. No different than forging in the shop except you have these beautiful white flakes raining down on you during the forging (outside forging in this case). One thing that is nice is, no sweating - JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Funny but as a flip side to this: at the last SWABA meeting we had a smith demonstrate his induction forge. What I quickly thought of is that with no burning fuel involved you could easily close up the shop and put in a swamp cooler or air conditioner! (Me having been forging at 42 degC in the shade lately) The flip side is that you could close up the shop and put in a wood stove, (running a pipe outside for combustion air for the stove would help a lot too). Of course if you can casually pick up an induction forge you could think of having a pied a terre somewhere warm for the winter... Under floor heating and radiant heating are both suggestions for working in areas where it's cold but a high air flow is required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Vent free propane heater to take out the chill while the Harman coal stove is getting up to temp. Plenum over the coal stove and 6 inch stove pipe across the shop ceiling with open 'T's" every few feet and cap the far end. The heat travels up the pipe and down the open T's into the shop . also a ceiling fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Heating the shop is how we do it. My propane forge is enough to heat it so long as it isn't really cold, more than single digit below zero that is. To take the chill off I have a barrel stove with a stack robber (heat exchanger) made from a half drum with a grease barrel through hole for a blower. Insulation is good, more is better in the extreme climates. Just being within working distance of my forge makes it shirt sleeve temp in sub zero weather but I need to keep a door open so my feets need thick boots. Under floor hydronic heat will be nice once I get it hooked up, warm feets make you happy. Placing your shop correctly helps, prevailing wind has a big effect on temp control. Here it's generally out of the NE so I have the man door on the N wall and the roll up on the S wall. They both get wind on them but this is snow country and trying to hid a door on the down wind wall is a BAD idea, eddy currents behind walls and buildings make snow drifts. Upwind isn't so good either as wind will blow snow right in. Cross wind walls are good for doors as the wind has to accelerate going past and carries snow by rather than drifting it. Chimneys MUST be a few feet higher than the highest part of the roof by 3-4' depending on local code. I put mine on the upwind side so there aren't as many as many eddies to blow smoke back down. The peak of a roof makes like a wing if it isn't steeply peaked and tends to remove the roof in high winds. We have high winds, down south they call em hurricanes, here we call it Wednesday. No fooling we get 100+ winds too often to be happy about, sometimes lasting for weeks. I have a 140mph roof on the house and doubled up on the screws on the shop lid. What happens on a low sloped roof is when the wind passes over it makes a strong low pressure zone right behind the peak just like an airplane wing. The same thing happens if you build just downwind of a hill or ridge sometimes in a little dell or holler. Several years ago we had a windstorm with sustained winds over 110 mph and gusts over 140 mph. Most of the damage was to homes in hollows or downwind of hill/ridge tops. The buildings in the open or on the upwind crests sustained less damage. Is it windy if a gust blows the side windows out of your car? I have NO idea why we didn't lose any windows in the house. Anywho, pay attention to how you orient your shop, deliveries coming and going are important. Wind direction is important. Fire danger is really important. How the wife thinks the shop makes the yard look is REALLY IMPORTANT! Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I love Frosties shop. Mine is small. 12' x 16'. It isn't insulated. But, with the propane forge going I can be working in my shirt sleeves in a few minutes. When the temps drop down to around 10 F. I call it quits. We had temps down in the -50 F range a couple of times last year. Most people get out in it and just do their thing. As long as your careful you'll be fine. However, it takes a long long time to warm up an anvil when the temps get that low. Steel gets brittle at those temperatures. So, warming up your anvil is important. Usually when the temperature gets that low. I stay inside if I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksnagel Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I'm just hoping to have a shop to heat this winter. Last winter I just picked my days and preheated the anvil. Wind was my greatest nemesis as it would wick the heat out of everything. This year, walls and a roof. Yes it does get bitter cold here in NC in the winter. Mark <>< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Cold? wassat? we dont worry much about cold on the bayou, in fact sometimes the weather gets so cold water will get hard (?) The weather channel says "protect pipes" It sure is funny to see gas meters wrapped up and protected from freezing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Many people consider it too cold to forge when the propane won't vaporize. If you check the archives you will find a lot of posts on cold weather smithing and tricks there of: preheating anvil and tooling, placing a sheet of plywood on the floor ao you are not standing on cold concrete or snow, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Old N Rusty, Yeah out here I've seen folks wrap their gas pipes too, sure is funny to see. I never had to worry about the cold here just the opposite, it's the heat that will get to you here so when I found one thrown to the curb I refurbished it, a small swamp box. I was sure glad they did! Worked great except when the dew point was in the high fifties or sixties, then you just turned the water off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Vent free propane heater to take out the chill while the Harman coal stove is getting up to temp. Plenum over the coal stove and 6 inch stove pipe across the shop ceiling with open 'T's" every few feet and cap the far end. The heat travels up the pipe and down the open T's into the shop . also a ceiling fan. I have seen long sloped runs of flue pipes to conserve and keep heat inside the shop but your hood and pipe air distribution system is a new one for me. Does your flue pipe go straight up through the roof ? Sounds like an interesting system, convection driven forced air circulation. How about a picture ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Hey Frosty - Keeping the door open in sub zero temperatures sounds unpleasant. Could you put one (or more) of those clothes dryer duct heads through the wall backwards so that make up air negative pressure will open them when air is needed but be closed when not. The problem with make up air is likely to be one of your biggest problems in a well insulated and heated shop. Of course I suppose that you could preheat make up air, maybe through your flue robber system. So far as the automobile windows breaking, that probably has something to do with tempered /heat treated glass not liking extreme sub zero weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Been drifted in while working outside in the winter once. That was fun. I had to shovel the drive to put my tools away. Cold, still air is not significantly more cooling than warm still air. The anvil is going to take energy away more quickly than the air. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulric Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Only 28deg or so when we took the pics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewed Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I shut the over head door, and put on a jacket. I've also been know to put an electric iron on the anvil to start to warm it while building the fire in the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 Can anyone explain what local practices are regarding construction of foundations on permafrost. I looked up commercial construction recommendations and was amazed at what is needed for slab an grade. Five feet of crushed stone with air duct ventilation ducts to keep the fill chilled down below slab on grade construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Virginia has permafrost? That settles it for me! I will Never ,never , be seen north of Shreveport La, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Virginia has permafrost? That settles it for me! I will Never ,never , be seen north of Shreveport La, LOL! I presume Knots is relocating somewhere with permafrost. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Concerning make up air, it has been awhile since I have done any serious HVAC design but we used to put in these energy recovery coils( no moving parts) in exhaust air ducts. The way they worked was that they had tubes filled with a refrigerant and as the exhaust air passed over the coils it either heated or cooled the incoming air depending on the season as the refrigerant evaporated or condensed. They sure saved a lot of energy. There was a fish store here in Phoenix that had them for his winter time use since it cost him so much to keep the store warm in the winter because he had to exhaust so much air because of the high humidity caused by over 200 aquariums at 75F. He could recover around 50% of the heat with these energy recovery coils. I'm thinking that one could make up a heat exchanger for the shop using waste heat from the forge and an old radiator from a truck, a small pump and a salvaged water heater plus some anti-freeze to keep it from freezing up when not in use. Oh and a fan to pass the air through the radiator. You could get the place right toasty with a little thought and a bunch of scrap items. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Could a sterling engine power that fan? Or is this getting close to the "perpetual motion" thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Could a sterling engine power that fan? Or is this getting close to the "perpetual motion" thing. Sterling cycle is not perpetual motion, although using waste heat that freely is getting close! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 LOL! I presume Knots is relocating somewhere with permafrost. Phil What is it with you guys ? Where is your native curiosity ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 Actually the permafrost question has a point other than idle curiosity. Frosty's plan to heat his floor to provide radiant heat for his shop floor could cause melting of permafrost below his foundations. This of course assumes that his shop is located over permafrost. The shop could be located on bed rock, or some other frost stable subsurface such as a gravel deposit and the radiant floor plan could be used without problem. I like the idea of toasty toes but not at the expense of sinking foundations. Bentiron, If freon was involved in the fish shop's heat conservation system sounds like a heat pump was involved. However heat recovery may achieved it can do a lot to improve comfort and is a real good idea. Preheating the make up air if it is -20 degrees outside could also be a big help. Or maybe just a mail slot through the door(propped open)rather than leaving the door open. So far as the foundations are concerned sometimes there are low tech solutions to problems. It is always interesting to learn new tricks. Living in an extreme low temperatures adds an extra level of work and complexity to life. You have got to respect those who do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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