John B Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Hi Dave, if you want to lock the legs together, how about using cotters and wedges (similar to leg vise mounting), quick and easy to secure or disassemble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Have you thought about using angle section for the legs? It will give an appearance of weight to the design and be much easier to work; you could easily use 3" and rivet the braces and decorative elements to it. I would think long and hard before trying to forge (or even heat) anything above 1.5"square. If the client will give you the time, why not knock up a maquette of parts of your designs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Angle would solve a problem I am having...... How do you attach a scroll in the corner of a 1.5+ inch leg and 1/2x2" flat bar cross piece? Still working on that one! However, I don't like the idea of angle. To me it has a rough workshop appearence. Mr. John, I like the idea of the cotters and wedges. That would look GREAT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Angle would solve a problem I am having...... How do you attach a scroll in the corner of a 1.5+ inch leg and 1/2x2" flat bar cross piece? Still working on that one! Hi Dave, glad you liked that one with the cotters, Now about this problem with the scrolls. Firstly you dont say how wide your scroll material is going to be, but here arre a couple of thoughts, To attach to the 1.5" leg, you could use a Ball headed bolt, or a stud with a ball nut, drill and tap the leg, and use the fixing to secure the scroll to the leg As for the scroll to the 1/2" x 2" flat, I am assuming you wish to attach it to the 1/2" width, in which case you could taper the scroll down to the same width at the touching point, and collar it, but instead of collaring all around the 2" dimension, pierce a slot through the bar relatively near to the abutting edges and make a collar to fit through the slot and secure the scroll in position (almost like a lacing) you could hide the join inside the 1/2" wide bar. Great learning job, but remember you have to make some money out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 You got my drift just right Mr. John. The scroll would be on the 1/2" side of the FB. I assumed the correct method of joinery would be as you described there. However, the leg part is what puzzled me. Your solution is a logical one. I had thought about riveting but tapping would be easier. My only problem with the is the lack of symetry in the joinery of each scroll. On one side I'd have a bulge and nothing to ballance that on the other side. Hi! My name is Dave, and I'm nit-picky! I suppose it's not that BIG of a deal but it bothers me! I need to just get used to it. With the lack of ballance in joinery on each side I could do different sized scrolls on each side and just go all out and unsymetrical! LOL It is a great learning job......I need the work, need the experience, and we won't even mention the money! LOL I'll be doing some careful figuring before I give my quote. It is a little different if I'm working 10 hours on a job and I only clear $8-$10 an hour. Ok lesson learned price higher next time. With this though, I suppose we are talking four or five days per section. Don't want to come out on the down side with THAT much work involved. After I finalize my design, I will post pictures and ask y'all how long you think it will take. Frankly I've got no clue! LOL That makes pricing hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I interpret "fleurette" to be, "small flower" or smaller fleur de lis in this case. They don't need to be perfect so long as they represent the image well; the mind's eye of the observers will do the rest for you. I find every project to be a learning project, just as I do watching anyone else forge. I'm a sponge, I absorbe everything I can from everyone all the time. Folk think I'm some kind of well educated smith kind o'guy but I'm really a sponge kind o'guy who likes to talk. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 My only problem with the is the lack of symetry in the joinery of each scroll. On one side I'd have a bulge and nothing to ballance that on the other side. With the lack of ballance in joinery on each side I could do different sized scrolls on each side and just go all out and unsymetrical! LOL Hi Dave, Not having the benefit of telepathy, I can't visualise what you are thinking, From your initial sketch I see no scrolls, so I assume you are thinking of putting these on the open sides/front? of the structure. In this case, as there are going to be three of them, they should appear reasonably symmetrical, (Don't get what you mean by bulge on one side) when placed together, As to "Unsymmetrical", the style then becomes "Organic" (terminology helps here BS doesn't just stand for blacksmith apparently, I did struggle with FB a little at first.) And I'm with Frosty, I can talk the talk, But fail to walk the walk IMHO. Still, you don't have to be able to do stuff to try to help others to achieve a succesful outcome, just know How to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Hi Dave, Not having the benefit of telepathy, I can't visualise what you are thinking, From your initial sketch I see no scrolls, so I assume you are thinking of putting these on the open sides/front? of the structure. In this case, as there are going to be three of them, they should appear reasonably symmetrical, (Don't get what you mean by bulge on one side) when placed together, I am sorry I was unclear in the description of joinery. What you described was a single scroll in a single corner. One side of the scroll would be attached with a collar making what I am refering to as a "bulge." Just a thick spot where the collar wraps around. The other side would just have the screw/bolt, and no "bulge" matching the other collar. Nothing at all wrong with that, I just automatically think symetry......I've got to get out of the comfort zone. I've drawing up a full size "fleur-de-lis" that I am happy with. Now that I know the size I will scale it down to the sketch size. I'll post pics in a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I am sorry I was unclear in the description of joinery. What you described was a single scroll in a single corner. One side of the scroll would be attached with a collar making what I am refering to as a "bulge." Just a thick spot where the collar wraps around. The other side would just have the screw/bolt, and no "bulge" matching the other collar. Nothing at all wrong with that, I just automatically think symetry......I've got to get out of the comfort zone. I've drawing up a full size "fleur-de-lis" that I am happy with. Now that I know the size I will scale it down to the sketch size. I'll post pics in a bit. Hi Dave, I may have totally misunderstood your intentions here, But If you are fitting a collar to the upright legs, and it gives you a 'bulge', the legs wont fit flush when the units are placed together for securing the three units as one, Another thing that crossed my mind after replying to the joining methods to fix the units together was that I think on the original sketch the drawing indicate the stone capping overhung the sides so unless the tops are going to slide, the legs will have to have some bow/dogleg to enable the units to butt up together when assembled to give you the solid look talked about There is a difference between symmetry and balance in a design, the main criteria is it fulfils the purpose for its existance in the design, be it functional or decorative, or both. Design ain't easy, but a worthy challenge. I am sure you will get there (and learn a lot as you go) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Alright now! I've got the "Fleur-de-lis" drawn on a fleurette, rosette, flower, round backing disk......whatever you want to call the thing. LOL (I'm not planning on writing that in my "pofessional" letter ) I drew it out in full scale so that I could then downsize it to my small drawing and have a reference to measure the scale off of. I am doing a scale of 1-5. This is the second drawing of this that I did. The centerpiece on the first one ended up too fat, so I transfered the side parts and redrew the center to a better proportion. Once again, I cannot draw the front view unttil the client gives me the final length measurement. However, 17" is the final width measurement so here is the endview. I went with a scrolled X-brace for a couple of reasons. #1: It's a heap better than a plain X.... #2: The area is a little tall and skinny for a continuous arched scroll... #3: By retaining the X-form, and utilizing the decorative scroll ends, I believe I have reached the common ground of strength and asthetic value. As you will seen drawn, I put a collar into the flat bar (the bars going horizontal,) and a screw/bolt into the square legs (the vertical side pieces,) to attach the X-brace scrolls. I believe this is what Mr. John was suggesting. As drawn, the flat bar is 1/2x2" and the legs are 2" square. It looks a little massive from an end view but I think 2" legs are going to look the best from the front view, as expressed by several people already. The flat bar in the drawing is shewn as being tennoned through the legs. This means the flat bar on the front and back would have staggered tennons. MR. John, the drawing may help clarify. I think my drawing represents what you were talking about. Collaring the scroll to the FB and bolting it to the leg. Of course we were talking about diagonal corner scrolls for the front view, but I would go with the same joinery on the ends. I think the front vew will be a little easier to draw. What do y'all think of my drawing so far? I'm certainly not a professional designer and usually no one except me can make sense of what I put on paper. I use a ruler to draw ALL straight lines and then sketch over it to give everything the appearence of having been totally free-handed. On the candle holder I made a couple months ago, I used the "golden rectangle" to draw the scroll work. I built that candle holder in a JCC class and the teacher said "GOLDEN RECTANGLE SCROLL??????? You need to learn to free-hand scrolls!" So I know these are small, but they are all free hand scrolls! I'm learning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Your drawings look great. If you use drill and tap the holes and use ball bolts or studs, spend the money and buy a new high quality tap and tap drill for the project. Drilling and tapping will be one of the last steps in the job, The $15-20 is nothing compared to the cost of re making a component due to a broken tap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Your drawings look great. If you use drill and tap the holes and use ball bolts or studs, spend the money and buy a new high quality tap and tap drill for the project. Drilling and tapping will be one of the last steps in the job, The $15-20 is nothing compared to the cost of re making a component due to a broken tap. RIGHT ON! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Looking good. I wonder about a few things - handling of the material behind the rosette, is it collared, overlap and welded, or riveted/drilled and tapped/ bolted. - overhang of the material off the legs - is the top going to cantilever out dramatically, or will it be closely supported, or will the stone be inset with an iron edge as full support, or a combination with the cantilever supported with iron. - fastening to a wall, floor, or other rigid support as so-called "earthquake proofing" even though you are not in an earthquake zone. I look forward to seeing pictures of examples in iron as well. I hope you get the job. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Looks like you have it well in hand Dave, awaiting the customers approval and hopefully you get the job at the right price. If you don't get it, you are going to at least have to make a 1 off and take a picture, otherwise there will be more than one of us disappointed that we don't get to see the fruits of all your endeavours you have put into this job so far. Good luck and fingers crossed for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Your drawings look great. If you use drill and tap the holes and use ball bolts or studs, spend the money and buy a new high quality tap and tap drill for the project. Drilling and tapping will be one of the last steps in the job, The $15-20 is nothing compared to the cost of re making a component due to a broken tap. ...and be very careful about heating and cooling any piece that will be tapped, a lot of "new" ms bar will harden unpredictably if cooled too quickly, even by the heat running away into the unheated area of such large stock. Nice drawing though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 Mr. Phil The Fleur-di-les will most likely have a fake collar just on the front and sides with it all being migged in the back. The weld will be round flat and the assebly will then be rivetted through the collar center, the rosette, and the intersection of the cross brace. Each cross brace will be one continuous piece with the intersection being half width so that they fit together in the same plane. (Flat on front and back. The rivet holding the area together will be 3/16 or 1/4. I will either go square or spot weld the rosette/fleur-de-lis assebly in the back to prevent loosening and rotation. I would prefer remaining traditional but for sake of time a spot weld under the lower portion of the X-brace would be more efficient and well nigh impossible to see. The stone top is to overhang 1 1/2" past the frame work I build. Each section of table top (17" deep, 1 1/2" thick, and 48" long) will weigh about 115 lbs. The stone will be supported until 1 1/2" from the edge, and I'll probably add one or two center supports running the 17" direction. I do not know yet if I will plan on screwing the slab to the table or just letting it set on felt tabs. Probably the latter! The table is supposed to go against an exterior wall and on concret, but I wouldn't worry about fastening. Thanks for the support Mr. John! I'm still waiting on the length measurment and other info from the client. I may email him today to help remind him! Or would it be better business not to pressure him and allow him to call me? I'm new to this sort of thing! Mr. Sam, I learned in my first class at JCC the dissadvantages of quenching. Unless I am 100% positive that I will be reheating an area, I never quench. I heat, hammer, and air cool, while working on another piece. That's going to take some patience with 1.5" bar! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Ok folks the latest! I emailed my sketches to the client last night and I am still awaiting a reply. I called my steel supplier who, as I saw it, had everything, only to find that the largest square stock they have is 1" square. I called around some other places and no one has anything larger. My steel supplier called back and said they can order larger stock and fortunately without an order minimum. I have finished all the drawings and here they are side by side. This is the front view. I kept it sweet and simple for a couple of reasons. The client said that he wanted a little ornamentation but not a lot. The lower part of the table will be used to hold firewood and what not, so I wanted to keep it somewhat open. I drew a couple of scrolls and curves for triangulization, but it just seemed too obtrusive. This is end view again. I'm going to have a friend cut out the fleur-de-lis parts with his computer plasma. That will save me time, and I'll heat them and bang them around a bit before asssembly. Now this is the unknown territory! Time? How long is it going to take to make this? Here is what I'm thinking, and suggestions as well as time estimates would be great. I will have to do some test pieces to determine the stock allowance for square corners, scrolls, slits, tenons, collars, and upsets. I will aso need to make a couple of jigs for the end scrolls and front brace pieces. I'll be making 12 of each of these so I think it would be worth while to have a jig. Once I am ready to start building the project I will build pieces. for instance, all 12 legs, then all of the flat bar pieces that connect the legs. After dry fitting that, I will work on the scroll and angular supports. When all the pieces for all three table assemblies are ready, then I will assemble all three tables. I am thinking that will be the most time efficient method, instead of forging four legs, switching to flat bar pieces, then to scrolls, and then doing assembly, and then repeating three times. Thoughts on my theory? Time wise I am hoping that the entire job will take no more than three, forty hour weeks. Thoughts on my time estimate would be appreciated. Thoughts on the overall plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Usually at this stage you will make a sample piece to show the client and get final approval on style texture etc. You will keep very accurate records of time and material. Maybe your sample is one leg with scrolls on 2 sides for example. After that you will have a very good understanding of the time. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 If all the basic subcomponents are identical, then do a run of each total and assemble when you have all the subcomponents made. If you are in "groove" and using a jig, then making 18-24 of something in a marathon session should be easier than having to break down the setup, then start over another day. I hope your friend's plasma work is up to your standards. Charge the customer what it takes YOU to make one from scratch (or at least the expected time), that way you have some wiggle room if you end up having to rework, unless your friend is a regular supplier and you know what to expect because you have done this before. How are you treating the hidden side? Is there an extra rail at the bottom for the firewood in the back or is it a solid shelf? You can gain a lot of rigidity with that hidden side. You can gain additional rigidity by making some flanges to (optionally) fasten to the wall in the back as well. Follow Fosterob's advice about samples. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 Ok people have mentioned samples before. Here is the question. Who's paying for materials if the client backs out? To do a leg scroll assembly I'd have to buy $200 of material plus time and have about $150 of left overs that I wouldn't normally be using around the shop. I'm not being critical of the idea of doing samples, BUT at the same time, I need to know how that works. I don't have work coming out of my ears here yet, and forking out $200 in materials I'm not going to use for who-knows-how-long creates a substantial hole in my wallet. I am planning on the front and back being identical. I am waiting on some information from the client to determine if it will always be against a wall. If so, then I can go simple on the back and gain time, if not I have figured for the extra time of forging the components. I also do not know about the material of the lower section of the table. I asked the client about that last night in my email to him. All figured I'm going to have about $900 in materials for all three tables. That's funny when I think about it because I have not yet done a single job over $900. That's a big step up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 It seems you pretty much have the job, is that so? I usually make samples with my time and money, not theirs. It helps you a lot to know what to expect on the job so you are less likely to get "surprises", and helps give an understanding of time involved. Since you own that sample you can do with it as you choose, put it aside to display to future clients OR incorporate it into the job by "selling" it to the client if you do not want to keep it. It is nice to have some samples of work for people to see in person. Some people can no visualize from drawings and need to be able to see and touch so a library of different styles, joints, textures etc... is usually helpful. Besides when you get in the groove of making parts one more is no big deal. I think some smiths may charge a non refundable deposit for extensive design work to cover things like this but I am not familiar. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Have you done these scrolls before for different stuff or is this a first? or is size/scale the problem/difference? Samples you can use for examples on other, future jobs too. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Your drawings are very good Dave, and I especialy like your treatment of the fleur de lis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 Fosterob: Thank you for your quick and clarifying response. I agree with you on the positives of sample pieces. I would really like to have some large samples from work like this to show at craft shows and to have available for future clients. It really could be the selling point for the piece.I also agree with your point about visualization. My dad is like that....I describe stuff to him all the time but he usually needs to see it on paper. (Rabit trail: I think smithing helps visualization because so often you have to see the finished piece in your mind while the steel is in it's early forms. End rabbit trail:) This job is not in the bag yet. I am hopeful but not certain. That's what makes me nervous about jumping in! Mr. phil: The square corner form is new to me! I've done square corners in the past but not in that form, and I'm not a pro at it. A test piece or two and I'll be on my way though! The X-brace scroll assembly is pretty straight forward. I don't think it will be too bad! Thanks artfist! I'm hoping I get the oportunity of putting it in metal! decisions, decisions, decisions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Hi Dave, Nice drawings, the only query on them I have is the joining of the rails on the corners, unless you are going to weld them on the inside, as you show no fastenings. But no doubt you have thought of that and have it in hand. (Tenons through tenons are a potential problem, not only in weakening the joint, but also in securing them. Going on your material costs I would think a price in the region of $7,500 + would be realistic, Now that figure is put down, others know the US market better than I and will probably come in with their opinions. Good luck and well done so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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