Big job questions

[JNewman]

I would think your time estimate is not too bad although some of the learning and samples may take a little extra time, but it can be hard to make your customer pay for that.

One suggestion for the two side by side square corners on your braces is to forge the braces from heavier stock and draw out everything that is not the square corner. This is going to require some math and possibly a sample but now that you have a power hammer it may be an easier way to make the two square corners. Look at page 105 of this book and you will see what I am talking about http://www.fpga-faq.org/sb-metal_hold/CD_12/BLACKSMITHS%20MANUAL%20ILLUSTRATED_tcm2-18917.pdf this is THE book for power hammer work. You will want to use kiss blocks/ stoppers for drawing out the braces as an easy way to get consistent sizes.

[FieryFurnace]

The top joint has puzzled me somewhat and this is what I had in mind. Please critique and advise!

I can offset the tenons on the two bars only so much. I want at least a half inch square tenon, and I think that is on the small side. With an offset tenon system though, the bottom of one tenon would be sitting on the top of the other tenon in the center of the bar. I am hoping slit/drift these in order to retain material and creat a bit of a bulge at the upper end of the bar. (Slitting a drifting may be made difficult with the holes so close together because of deformation.....I think this may be corrected by working the holes an extra time or two with the drift and/or placing a dummy bar in one hole to while the other is being shaped. ) If I am not satisfied wth the joint once formed, I will come on the inside and run a mig weld.

Oh and to answer about getting the fleur-de-lis cut out: I've worked with this guy before and he does great work. He does really neat fabricated pieces full time. All I'll have to do is dress the edges.

[HWHII]

I too rely on samples and photos to get my designs across. I unfortunately do not draw as nice as you do. Samples are usually done at my cost up front. If I do get the project they are factored into the job.

[pkrankow]

Any reason not to electrically weld the 1 inch, then rivet everything else? You can grind then dress the weld. although you may need a hoist in your shop for that.

Phil

[John B]

Hi Dave, some suggestions if you want to avoid using the welder

On the end view, drop the top crossbar down a couple of inches so the joints don't intersect each other, I wouldn't think a gap at the top would be too detrimental

Another alternative would be to increase and exagerate the heel bars giving more space to join at the intersection by pass throughs.

Another alternative would be to tenon the end units as you may want these to fit flush with each other, then fit the ends to the front crossbar using countersunk screws through the tenons, and use a ball nut and stud screw to secure the lower parts of the scrolls to the end frame legs, this will give you the triangulation and keep the rail in line ( you could recess the top rail, (Blind punch) into the leg slightly to prevent it swivelling

If you are worried about the bottom rail swivelling if you are using countersunk screws put in two screws each end, either side of your tenon, Use High tensile countersunk head allen screws for maximum strength and recess also if you wish,

One advantage of screwing them together is ease of assembly.

Dont forget you can upset for the heel bar effect on three of the sides at each end, and still maintain your drawing lines. this will give you more contact at each joining place.

Hope this helps, if not use the welder

[FieryFurnace]

Mr. John,

You have really helped out alot in this thread and I really appreciate it. I hope I get the job so I can put all of this good advice to use.
I got most of what you put down there, and I'll think on the rest until I figure it out. I would like to avoid the welder if possible.My goal as a blacksmith is to know how to use a welder and other fab tools, but to have a focus and a well rounded knowledge on traditional joinery. I don't mind using the welder to save time, but when it's all said and done I want you to have to do some looking to find it.


I like the idea using the allen screws. All of the scroll attachment points on the legs will be attached using that method. I figured two new taps in my materials list as just those scroll pieces would be a total of 36 holes.

I am planning on upsetting three of the four sides at the end of each cross bar. The original dimension is 1/2"x2" FB. I am hoping to upset so that the top line remains straight and the outside, inside, and bottom swells. I'm not sure but I'd hope to get 5/8"-3/4" by 2 1/2"-2 3/4".

Oh and BTW do you take apprentices Mr. John? B)

[John B]

Thanks Dave, glad to have provided some brain fodder,

Those sizes should be relatively easily achievable, don't forget the cheese fuller to blend them in if need be

Sorry, I don't take apprentices any more, in fact as I have now retired I am just selling off all my tools and machinery as I will be relocating nearer to public transport and shopping facilities soon, so they will be going on to an online auction house's site hopefully to carry on their useful life with someone who needs them and they will still be used, otherwise they will be off to the scrapyard,

I will continue to take some of the classes at Westpoint all being well.

[Fosterob]

Another, possibly better option for your tennons is to do a large tennon on one side and a small tennon that goes through the large on through the other side. After you install the large tennon drill through it to install the smaller one.
Options are endless.
Rob

[FieryFurnace]

Another, possibly better option for your tennons is to do a large tennon on one side and a small tennon that goes through the large on through the other side. After you install the large tennon drill through it to install the smaller one.
Options are endless.
Rob

It appears they are! That's not a bad idea either!

I could do a large tennon about 1 3/4x1/2 and then do a 1/2x3/4 thru it.

[FieryFurnace]

I have not heard back from the client after sending the quote.
I quoted $2500 in labour plus $1000 materials. Delivery and installation would be extra.

Before I get roasted I allowed buffer room and a little over $20 an hour labour. (Materials covered, the $20 an hour being profit.)

I know it has been recommended that I charge much more per hour, and I do understand that many very tallented blacksmiths are able to charge much more for their work and that they are in high demand.

Bottom line is, I'm not in high demand regardless of the quality or appearence of my work. If I make $20 an hour or a little more, it's work I wouldn't have had anyway, and an income that wouldn't otherwise have been there. If had a line-up of clients waiting to get their piece, then I could offord to bid higher.

As it is in this case, pricing doesn't matter too awful much cause it doesn't appear this guy was too serious. Oh well!

I did get my work in an art store today in North Carolina and sold a piece before I left the parking lot!

Ups and downs of business ehh!

Eventually I will get some extra stock laying around and build a couple of the pieces!

[bigfootnampa]

Dave; Regarding samples, they are VERY useful helping to iron out any misunderstandings of design or quality and also as practice for the real work. In a case where an uncomfortable investment would be required to build the samples you might consider doing a scaled down model. These can still be very useful for practice refining the steps and testing time estimates... but use a lot less material. Artists working in many types of media have done this often over centuries now. Samples are part of the costs of marketing your work. Skimping on samples too often leads to unhappy customers, redos, payment squabbles, and many other nasty elements of doing a custom designed piece of work. This is why base rates are often higher than what you are working for... such things MUST be included to do the work in a professional manner and to make money at it. Of course some customers will abuse your generosity if you charge nothing for samples regardless of how involved they may be or how many times they ask you to redo in different designs. You need a firm policy and to make clear who owns the samples. Unscrupulous customers will ask a craftsman for a free sample intimating that they would like to hire him and then they will take it to his competitor and make a better deal since the sample is a clear design already developed (or they might have their brother-in-law make it for them). Try to keep possession of any samples or drawings that you have not been fully paid for. I am only scratching the surface here of this very complex subject about which much has been written already... I just want to get you thinking this through and grasping some of the many considerations involved.

[John B]

I have not heard back from the client after sending the quote. I quoted $2500 in labour plus $1000 materials. Delivery and installation would be extra. Before I get roasted I allowed buffer room and a little over $20 an hour labour. (Materials covered, the $20 an hour being profit.) I know it has been recommended that I charge much more per hour, and I do understand that many very tallented blacksmiths are able to charge much more for their work and that they are in high demand. Bottom line is, I'm not in high demand regardless of the quality or appearence of my work. If I make $20 an hour or a little more, it's work I wouldn't have had anyway, and an income that wouldn't otherwise have been there. If had a line-up of clients waiting to get their piece, then I could offord to bid higher. As it is in this case, pricing doesn't matter too awful much cause it doesn't appear this guy was too serious. Oh well! I did get my work in an art store today in North Carolina and sold a piece before I left the parking lot! Ups and downs of business ehh! Eventually I will get some extra stock laying around and build a couple of the pieces!

It has been said if you seek out/cater for the 20 whatever per hour client, you will get 20 an hour jobs, if you seek out the 100+ whatever an hour client, you WILL get the 100+ an hour jobs .

Don't sell yourself short, and never, never assume what someone can or cannot afford for a commission. Commissions are unique and command a higher return than production run type jobs.

Just because you may baulk at the price you are quoting its probably because you know how and can do it, the client usually cannot, and even if the can, then they appreciate the work and experience that goes into it.

In the past, before I retired, I have sometimes been questioned on why my prices were higher than others who quoted,

Short answer, "Because I know what I am doing, and what the job requires", and then explained what I would be making/doing to succesfully achieve what they required, and then tell them to ask the other people quoting what they would be doing.

Most times I would get the job because although relatively high against other's quotes the potential client had more confidence in placing the order with me.

The problem with taking on "big" jobs is that if one big job goes wrong, it can take you down, a smaller job goes down, and in the overall scheme of things that is not such a disaster.

As for high demand, you don't need many big jobs to be busy, some contracts taking many weeks to fulfill, and then demand/enquiries for more jobs can become embarassing,

It also can help if you target your audience as to the type of work you are going to do, (which you seem to be working towards) and set your marketing strategy towards that goal, (and try not to get distracted)

As small unit smith's we do have the advantage of flexibilty on what we can do in times of hardship, and can switch paths relatively quickly if we have to.

I would suggest contacting the client and asking if he has any problems with the quote and have you been succesful or not in obtaining the commission.

Another good idea is to ask the client initially if they have a budget or price in mind for the job, This will at least give you some idea of what they are expecting, you can then make a decision and advise whether that is a realistic/fair price or not.

It is then up to you whether to decide if you can make a crust out of that price or not, and then either decline or agree to submit a quote and then make sure you are entirely happy with your quoted price before accepting the job.

Terms and conditions (copyright of drawings?) of the quote/estimate should be included in any documents you send to the potential client.

Hope you get the job and the return you want from it. Good luck

[John McPherson]

$20 an hour is what you charge for a day laborer, doing unskilled work, using minimal tools. A skilled craftsperson should charge 4 to 5 times that, heck, the shop rate at the muffler place on the corner is $80.

Your hourly shop rate has to cover your highly skilled personal time in the project, from initially answering the phone, to putting the crated project on the dock for shipping. Then there are the shop costs to consider, usually referred to as overhead: taxes, business licenses, power and lights, heat, rent*, tools and consumables.

*Sure, you are living and working at home now, but if you had to move out and build or rent a shop space in the next few years, do you really think that rate is going to cover the down payment? If you are turning a profit, is it not fair to *offer* your folks some return on their letting you get your business established on their dime?

[HWHII]

I think everyone here has made a good point on how much one should charge for his or her work.

I have followed Daves threads for sometime now and admire his talent, drive and passion for what he does. I have made my own comments on how much he should charge. When all the smoke clears at the end of the day he is doing what he loves at what ever cost to follow his dream. Which there is alot to be said for.

In this economy I have seen a few smiths who have closed there doors and take other jobs rather than lower there prices or take on jobs they would not usually be willing to do, and that is there choice too.

When you look at this young man 10 years from now if he continues on, he will be one of the elite smiths in our trade and he will get the price we all think he should get now, and it will all be for the sacrifices he makes today, for what he loves.

A true story of a starving artist in the making.

[FieryFurnace]

You all make valid points! I personally do not have the confidence that the people I am dealing with are willing to pay $50 an hour labour. My confidence will undoubtedly build as I work with clients, but I'm not going throw out a high figure from the beginning. I'll have to feel my way up the ladder.

I understand your point about skilled labour verses unskilled labour McPherson, however, in my situation it is a case of making the $20 an hour or making $0 an hour, watching dust collect on about $5000 worth of equipment that I have literaly put everything into for the last five years. No offence meant to you, I am just stating the situation I am faced with.

The way I am viewing it is, I figure materials cost. Steel, finish, welding supplies, grinding supplies, etc etc.
Then I figure labour.
At the end of the day of work, I have made $20+ an hour and materials have been covered. I do realize I have to think about moving off and building my own shop, paying taxes by the quarter and at the end of the year, etc. etc. However, once again, I don't have a choice of "do I want to take the $50+ an hour job or the $20+ an hour job." My choice is $20+ or $0.

I am working on getting my smaller stock items into arts and crafts stores on a national scale. Those items I am commanding a higher price on so that my hourly wage is up in the $40 an hour range.