barbar27 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Hello everyone, my name is Juris and I am quite new to all this and I basically only have a book and a farrier that I see once in a blue moon for advice, Today I attempted to do a forge weld and it failed miserably... I have an old stand alone open top forge with a handle cranked air supply, and I just built a small firebrick forge and am going to use two pipes down either side with holes drilled in them and attached to a dual squirrel cage blower, aimed at the base of the fire. And I am just using homemade charcoal for my fuel source.. I'm 19 and I don't have a lot of money ha for the weld I tried to put two old screwdriver bits together and basically all it did was put a deep indent on one and a shallow indent on the other.. what should I look for when I "know" it is ready to forge weld, also for the weld is it totally necessary to use a flux like the borax or does that just make it that much better? air supply- do I need a ton of air or will for example a hair dryer get me up to the temps needed for the welding? My book says that the metal will look "drippy" or like "waxy" when the metal is ready to be welded, as for my air supply do you think the two pipes of black 1/2" black iron pipe, with hole drilled down the length do the trick? Thank you for reading and I would much appreciate any and all feedback, Juris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Welcome to the craft and welcome to the site. This question almost exactly has been answered really frequently in this forum and it will help you lots to just scan down the postings below and see wot has already been given as advice for wot you are trying to do. And really forge welding is not a starting place. Fire management comes way ahead of that. Does your farrier friend forge weld? if so have him take a look at your set up and give thoughts. Learn basics and ask more questions on here as you go...have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeman Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Having never used charcoal I dunno how easy/hard it is to weld with it. One thing you can do to try to see if your fire is getting hot enough is stick some small scrap in the middle of the fire and put your air to it. If it starts throwing sparks and comes out crusty, bubbly and half melted your fire's definitely hot enough to weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Welcome to IFI. Like Rich said, forge welding is not a good starting point to learn blacksmithing. Start with bisic fire management, then heat some metal and learn to shape it. You said that you have a book. It should show starting with some basic skills and as these grow, add to them. Where are you located? This could be a huge help for advise. You may have a blacksmith very near to your location that you can get with and learn. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 if your screwdriver bits are plated you are risking poisoning. also they are too small a mass for a beginner to hope to weld, wont hold the heat long enough. Welcome to the forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbar27 Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 thank you for the input ha and yeah I suppose I jumped the gun a bit on the welding.. so it is better to start (once I get to that point) with larger massed scraps to weld? And I have made like two knifes out of some bolts I found in the back yard ha the shape to them I think is somewhat alright but as for hardening and tempering well that is a work in progress.. Also I am located in Hibbing, Minnesota, about 75 to 80 miles from Duluth, Minnesota. again thank you for the input, Juris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Yes, massing scrap together to form a significant bar is a good place to start. It is a lesson in one of the out of print books, take scrap and weld up a 7/8 inch square bar, long enough to do the next lesson. (I'd have to reread the book to tell you more, but it was a free download.) Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 http://books.google.com/books?id=7MQXAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR5&lpg=PR5&dq=forge+work+william+l+ilgen&source=bl&ots=aK-HWa-xtI&sig=wf-u0n9ok7aBRaZdv2-yX1PMbj8&hl=en&ei=eiQGTv6GDenv0gHsqZHhCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false Forge Work, William L Ilgen there are several lessons on welding Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbar27 Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 http://books.google.com/books?id=7MQXAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR5&lpg=PR5&dq=forge+work+william+l+ilgen&source=bl&ots=aK-HWa-xtI&sig=wf-u0n9ok7aBRaZdv2-yX1PMbj8&hl=en&ei=eiQGTv6GDenv0gHsqZHhCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false Forge Work, William L Ilgen there are several lessons on welding Phil Thank you that is quite helpful, I have actually postponed the welding until I am more acquainted to the art ha but just reading a little bit when I looked at it I learned some info. about the fire itself, It is bookmarked and will be well read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbar27 Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 if your screwdriver bits are plated you are risking poisoning. also they are too small a mass for a beginner to hope to weld, wont hold the heat long enough. Welcome to the forum Plated as in how? with Zn or like Chrome? and thank you I would hate to be getting poisoned by being not informed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I get my students started by forging a point on a thin piece of bar, then do the other end. Maybe turn the end to make a decorative twirl and then bend into an S hook. Welding old hoseshoes into a bar was a job for a young apprentice I know but come on guys- it really isn't for a starter with no master smith to cuff her ear when she does it wrong is it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Hello everyone, my name is Juris and I am quite new to all this and I basically only have a book and a farrier that I see once in a blue moon for advice, Today I attempted to do a forge weld and it failed miserably... I have an old stand alone open top forge with a handle cranked air supply, and I just built a small firebrick forge and am going to use two pipes down either side with holes drilled in them and attached to a dual squirrel cage blower, aimed at the base of the fire. And I am just using homemade charcoal for my fuel source.. I'm 19 and I don't have a lot of money ha for the weld I tried to put two old screwdriver bits together and basically all it did was put a deep indent on one and a shallow indent on the other.. what should I look for when I "know" it is ready to forge weld, also for the weld is it totally necessary to use a flux like the borax or does that just make it that much better? air supply- do I need a ton of air or will for example a hair dryer get me up to the temps needed for the welding? My book says that the metal will look "drippy" or like "waxy" when the metal is ready to be welded, as for my air supply do you think the two pipes of black 1/2" black iron pipe, with hole drilled down the length do the trick? Thank you for reading and I would much appreciate any and all feedback, Juris Hard to say much about your air supply with out more knowledge of your forge or blower, but in general two 1/2" pipes is going to do almost nothing. You might start with two 1 1/2" pipes, but best would be to post photos of your forge, blower and blower specs. Also, put your home town and state in your avatar frame. You will get the most help that way. As an idea of air pipe sizes, my small solid fuel forge uses a tuyere made from a 4" pipe tee and is supplied from the blower by 3"x3" square section of tube steel. The clinker breaker is in the top of the tee, just under the firepot, the air blast comes into the branch or side of the tee, and the ash dump/air gate is at the bottom of the tee. Further regulation of air volume is acomplished with a gate over the inlet side of the blower. This setup is very controllable, and way hot enough to melt steel with charcoal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 the blowers used to inflate bouncy castles put out enough air for about 4 solid fuel forges, and are about 1/5th of the price of a 'real' forge blower! I started out trying to pattern weld blade stock, bypassing all the 'forge a hook' type work, I got there in the end but im very stubborn ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 A couple 1/2" pipes with drilled holes would probably be fine for a specialty purpose but not so good for general forging, especially charcoal. Charcoal works best(?) with a good volume and lower pressure than coal/breeze(forge coke). If you try pushing enough air to it from a small source the pressure and velocity goes up and you'll get an oxidizing fire which is a bad thing. To get you started on the way a hair drier or car heater blower is plenty, you can go bigger when you have a handle on smithing. Teaching yourself to forge weld can be a challenge but not impossible, I did it and wouldn't do so again, it took me a long time and lots of burnt steel. Find someone who will show you, follow the steps and you'll have it down quickly. I teach anyone I'm showing to weld very early. I have them make a leaf coat hook and usually show them how to do a forge weld first day. The leaf coat hook is packed with a number of techniques and the forge weld holds a lot of mystique and I've found dispelling the mystery is good for the confidence. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Flux makes it easier and can be right handy when you are trying to weld different steels together that have different welding temps---especially for knifemaking as most of the no flux forge welders I have seen demo with mild steel and work quite hot---where high carbon would be taking damage. When you get to a point where you want to try welding again take a sq bar and bend the end back on itself and try welding that---easier than using loose pieces. Forge welding in Charcoal is quite possible---all the migration era and viking era swords were forge welded in charcoal fueled forges and the traditionally made japanese swords are forgewelded with charcoal to this day. It does tale a lot of charcoal and a quite deep pile of it---having a forge designed for charcoal and not for coal helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Juris, Galvanized metal creates fumes when heated and this is poisonous to breathe. Don't do it. This includes galvanized piping that you may use to build your forge. This probably applies to Cadmium coating too. Some paints probably aren't good either. Why go straight to forge welding? There are a lot more skills to learn before needing to weld. Surf the net and youtube for videos and articles/free books. Learn to Taper, Draw out, Square, Octagon, make a point, Twists, Simple Handles and so forth. In other words practice some basic skills that you can then use to make many things. Make your own forge tools first off (tongs, rake etc...) Make some useful S-Hooks and give them away. Make some wall hanger hooks... Once you get a better feel for your set-up and learn more you'll be in a better place to expand to welding and all sorts of things. On-line there are a lot of videos. Off hand surf for Bill Epps (I like his tong video), Technicus Joe ( he has several videos and I like the music), Brian Brazeal (haven't seen but a couple videos but he has some step by step photos) and a whole host of others. Check out the links section of various blacksmithing association websites. Build a coal forge if you can. Ask for Coal for your birthday or Christmas. Keep truckin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Probably CAD? It's WAY more dangerous than galvy, WAY WAY more toxic. Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 On the positive side Cadmium and Zinc are removed by vinegar (overnight) or muriatic acid (minutes). Chrome, a little less easy to remove however. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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