What do you charge to sharpen a breaker bit?

[monstermetal]

It is looking like I am going to take on some bit sharpening work. Paving breakers, hammer points and chisels, clay spades It will be contract work with the outfit who services the customers. they are saying 500-1500 pieces a week. Anyone do this kind of work? What do you charge? It seems to me its going to be real hard to make money at what they are offering out of the gate and Id like to have some figures to try and negotiate with.

Any info you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Larry

[JNewman]

I did some a year ago for $5ea. Unfortunately there is a shop in Toronto who is doing them for I think about $3.75ea picked up and delivered. Most of the rental yards seemed to be happy with the other shop even before I tried to talk price.

[Ted T]

Larry,
In the early 70’s I worked for a county government as an industrial blacksmith/welder.
Three days a week I had to schedule time to re-point and repair jackhammer gats.
For the sake of this note, please humor me while I just refer to them GATS!
This was back in the early 70’s (about 40 years ago), to keep this simple, I will just call them gats.

Because I worked for a government, they would never throw anything away and we would be required to get every bit of life out of each gat.
So as I write this, please keep in mind that maybe we are not talking about the same requirement s to save trashed out gats.

This is the issue as I see it for you. There were several different types (or styles) of gats.
Due to the different designs, lengths, and thickness of material, it took a different amount of time to re-point or repair each type of gat if necessary.
Minutes count when forging for money. Each extra minute at the hammer means that extra fuel is burning also.

To meet the demands of the work that needed to be done, I had to be on the top edge of learning how to manage fire time vs. forge time of each type (or style) of gat.

They ranged from concrete breakers, moil points, digging chisels, etc. on through asphalt cutters, that we called Paddle Gats, which many times we would have to re-build because they would use them to pry with and damage them.

I would manage my time accordingly so I would always have steel in the fire that would be ready “at heat” after the last piece was finished on the hammer.
I would always keep some smaller work available to integrate quickly into the forge if there was a delay in between the fire and the hammer.
Other times when I would have to re-build a paddle gat, I would have a welding table set up close by so I could run build up pass’s in order to keep my time productive time in-between heats.
There was never any toe tapping time in-between the fire and the hammer!

The reason I bring this wordy and lengthy explanation to the surface is because it took more time to re-point or restore different shapes or types of gats.
That would also mean more time and fuel would be consumed.

For that reason, I suggest that you take a trial order of Jackhammer Gats (Bits).
Make an (exploration) days run that would be representative of what the demand would be if you accepted a full order.
Keep an accurate record of the time it takes to do each and every type of gat.
You will learn what your capacity limits are for positive productivity!

Do the math for cost / benefit ratio!! With that many gats you will surly make a dent on your availability to accept other jobs that may pay higher.
Again, do the math based on hands on experience to make sure it will be worth your time.

When I did that work, I always left the shop at night exhausted, and I was in good shape!
Best to you as always!
Ted Throckmorton

[Bob S]

Hard work. New ones aren't cheap...

http://www.mcmaster....reakers/=buhxwa

Charge enough to make plenty of money or don't take them.

Bob

[easilyconfused]

You need to crunch numbers. How fast can you repair them with a safety margin for complications. How much fuel will you burn per bit, what are fuel costs? Opportunity costs of other jobs being missed if you're busy. That will decide what you can afford to charge. If they want it for cheaper, what's the point of doing something that's loosing you money? You're just stepping backwards then. The only time knowing what other's are charging is to see what the market will bear over your break point.

[nonjic]

Very hard work on the power hammer, dont forget to take the wear and tear into account. All the offset, near pallet to pallet rapidly cooling work batters the machine. Ive seen many a broken dovetail from this work.

I used to know a guy that repointed tens of thousands of them a year, he had the contract with most of the local authorities in the UK. He smashed up many a decent power hammer doing them. In the end I sold him a licence to the design for the 'Blacker' hammer, and he made 6 of them, modified to use a pneumatic cylinder to do the pullin and pushing. It seemed that the pantograph arm arrangement, with a tapered ram block lent itself very well to the work.

Induction will be a very usefull tool for this kind of work, im sure youve spoken to grant :D

[HWHII]

As you probably already know I have started to do this work in my area. I am charging $4 for SDS bits $6 for 1" chisel and hammer points and and $8 for 3".

[harrismetalsmith]

Monster, we did a lot of sharpening work at the industrial forge I worked at in Philadelphia. I don't remember exactly what they charged for Jack hammer bits.
My old boss called me and he is selling some old dies for the 3b hammer. I looked at them the other day and I bought a pair I'm converting to fit my 2b. I'm going back up to get a pair for Dave Hammer. I think I remember seeing some pointing dies. He wanted $100 a die. If you want the pointing dies I could get one for you. Probably cost another $50 or $60 to ship it. Let me know if you want it. I think I remember one.

[fciron]

The shop I am in remains a blacksmith shop after 150 years because they spent most of the 20th century sharpening breaker bits. That business had already slowed when I came in, so I have fairly limited experience with it. I do know that it was hard on the equipment, as has already been stated. There are several pairs of dies here from the fifty pound little giant that have been worn hollow to degrees I didn't think possible. (That is a small hammer doing this work full time.) The corners of all of the anvils were chipped back a good 3/4" from doing this work also.

Anyway, for comparison, I set my price at $7 for a bull or chisel point on a 1" hex, more for clay spades or larger bits. On the other hand, I haven't seen any sharpening work for about 18 months, so it may not be a good comp. ;)

[monstermetal]

Monster, we did a lot of sharpening work at the industrial forge I worked at in Philadelphia. I don't remember exactly what they charged for Jack hammer bits.
My old boss called me and he is selling some old dies for the 3b hammer. I looked at them the other day and I bought a pair I'm converting to fit my 2b. I'm going back up to get a pair for Dave Hammer. I think I remember seeing some pointing dies. He wanted $100 a die. If you want the pointing dies I could get one for you. Probably cost another $50 or $60 to ship it. Let me know if you want it. I think I remember one.

absolutely, that would be outstanding... Thanks!

[monstermetal]

So basically what they are proposing is $1.5 for a point (more for a 3" and clay spades) they will drop them off and pick them up.. all I have to do is the actual work... I have no idea what its going to take time wise nor do I feel I can really get in the grove in a few weeks... its going to take a few months of doing it to really get a feel... I know they charge $6 for a point and it seems to me that they want to keep way to big of chunk of the pie.. The flip side is my son will be the man on the job, it shouldn't take much out of my day time wise. I think it would allow me to pay him a better wage and keep him in steady work... Grant tells me that with the induction forge I should be able to average at least one a minute....

[Ted T]

Please keep us up-dated as you progress with this job and how it all ends up!.
I find it educational and interesting.
We have some good people who make comming into this site profitable!

[Fe-Wood]

So basically what they are proposing is $1.5 for a point (more for a 3" and clay spades)

At that price I don't see it being a money maker. More like a break even. But then I guess it depends on how many they give you at a time ( I suggest a minimum Qty.) and what you need to make for the shop. As I see it- you need to be able to receive the batch, heat, forge, clean up, temper and will call the batch in less than a minute each. I know I have a lot to learn but I don't see that one penciling out, IMHO.

Like Ted said- keep us posted

I've though about pursuing it in my area but I don't really have the set up (heat treat) and we only have 2 rental yards....

[Fosterob]

I spoke to a retired gentleman once that used to re-point gats and he said it was hard work, as stated earlier. He also made sure all the tips were of proper hardness before returning to the customer, take that into account.
Can you unload the truck, shake out the pallet, forge gat tips, re harden them, have it packaged up to ship, and load on the truck all for $1.50 each? Does not seem like it is a money maker with equipment wear and tear taken into account.
Rob

[pkrankow]

So basically what they are proposing is $1.5 for a point (more for a 3" and clay spades) they will drop them off and pick them up.. all I have to do is the actual work... I have no idea what its going to take time wise nor do I feel I can really get in the grove in a few weeks... its going to take a few months of doing it to really get a feel... I know they charge $6 for a point and it seems to me that they want to keep way to big of chunk of the pie.. The flip side is my son will be the man on the job, it shouldn't take much out of my day time wise. I think it would allow me to pay him a better wage and keep him in steady work... Grant tells me that with the induction forge I should be able to average at least one a minute....

Without knowing particulars and such, that seems very low unless there is a high level of identical going on, sorted before delivery.

Phil

[Old N Rusty]

I have done a few jackhammer bits, I dont seek it. They came to me after they were too short to fit in the grinder the equipment rental place uses to sharpen their bits. Heat treat? I never tried to harden them, maybe it was necessary, and I just did not know it. there has never been a complaint about them being too soft. A broken bit is not a happy maker for a concrete buster or the rental place. i would get $4.00 apiece. We got to that number because i first quoted $5.00 and the Manager wanted to bargain. Remember ; To realise you did not charge enough in the middle of a job, hurts more than asking too much and not getting the job at all.

[Drewed]

So basically what they are proposing is $1.5 for a point (more for a 3" and clay spades) ...I know they charge $6 for a point
....

Seems like a bit of a shaft to me. Ruffly 400% markup for what basically is shipping on their part?

Figure out how long ALL of the work will take you per piece ( unpacking, heating, working, tempering, repacking, paper work ) and then you can figure out your per hour rate. Then subtract the cost of supply ( include electricity for than induction forge ) then you can see if this will be a money maker or not.

Still, 400% mark up on their part? I would try to find out who did their work before and see what they charged and why they are no longer doing the work. Perhaps they are just jerks to work for / with

[HWHII]

I average 6 min a bit, in a propane forge thats with temper, clean up on a belt sander and a light rub with scotch brite. As I do more I am sure I can drop that time down. I am sure thinking about a induction forge. If I can cost one into the job with a quick pay back I think I will pull the trigger on one. I have been told that some do not even bother with the clean up but I think it makes it look more professional and my clients like the finished product better.

[monstermetal]

for the last 15 years they have been doing this work inhouse... they have let there machinery get to the point where it desperately needs replaced. I got involved in this because they where looking for a new powerhammer. They want to reduce there overhead and there volume has slowed to a point where its not cost effective to have a full time employee just to sharpen steel... they are telling me that in the winter months its only 20hr a week or so worth of work but in the summer its a hard week to get it all done (for one guy)

I am not going to sign an agreement to do them for any price long term without being able to do them for a while and get a feel for how it goes... But the other issue is I want to be fair to them. If they shut down there shop and let there blacksmith go and then I say I wont do it they are going to be in a real bind.... I think it could be real good for my son and my shop to do the work, but only if its profitable.

[pkrankow]

I've heard this story before...skipping PM and such because the time and materials make the job/business unprofitable...

Phil

[harrismetalsmith]

Man I'm thinking you have to get at least $4 a bit to make it work. I run a two man shop, my dad is my only employee. We need to get $60 an hour. Even with an induction forge, you would be cruising to get one done in 4 min. with tempering included. I'm assuming tempering is included. If not the $1.5 may work but that sounds awfully low. You have to be fair to yourself and them.
I've never done runs on breaker bits, but I still do runs on dressing mason hammers. Upsetting the faces, drawing out the pein, grinding, and heat treating. I'm doing good to do 2 hammers an hour. At $30 for a redress, that work is disapearing quickly.
On the other hand, I think what you are talking about with a bigger company, with bigger overhead, looking to reduce their overhead, is going to help small 2 to 4 man shops like mine and yours, in the long run.
Like John N. said take into account the wear on your hammer as well. My 2B Nazel ram dovetail was out of square with the ram by about a 1/8" on the short way, probably from years of work like this where the impact stress is more on one side of the die. Might want to plan on 4 runs that are 2 hours long with a 30 min. rest for the hammer and your son. Just thinkin' out loud.

I'm hoping to make it to Philly on friday, to look at those dies, and pick up some other stuff.

[monstermetal]

Yeah I think $1.5 is out of the question... I am going to ask for $3 and I think I can make it work at that... At $3 its around $125,000 a year worth of work...

[fciron]

Ok, Monster and Harris both posted while I was typing. It took a long time because a roufus-sided towhee appeared in the living room and we had to rescue it from the pets and take pictures.

I'm going to guess that they arrived at $1.50 based on their cost of sharpening in-house. That price may be based purely on labor and possibly fuel. I doubt they are figuring building overhead and other costs into the job, since they are paying those costs whether they sharpen or not. They probably didn't figure wear on the equipment into the cost either, but they know it's there. If they are going to willing to outsource it, then it is because they feel it's cheaper to send it to you than keep it in-house.

I'm pretty sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but I'm gonna ramble on a bit to try and make sense of it. You need to make sure that your costs are going to be covered: labor, overhead, equipment maintenance, etc. The wear from a job like this is less on a large hammer than it is on my little 50 pounder. You've got the ability to dedicate space and personnel to the job, so the opportunity costs are less (you won't lose another job because of it). I expect you'll buy or build some special dies to speed things up. I don't think their guy is banging them out in a minute apiece, so if their price is based on his labor, you get a little boost there. These are all factors in your favor.

So, if a buck-fifty apiece equals about a minute apiece, then a 40 hour week in the summer would cost them $3,000. One month of that would probably buy them a pretty nice hammer, so I don't think the price of equipment is scaring them off. I've got an old estimating book and they recommend a 5% miscellaneous personnel allowance and a 25% fatigue allowance on any job "calling for much physical effort". That knocks your weekly output back closer to $2,000. I bet most of their cost goes into wages. You and your son may be more motivated than the average employee and thus able to work more efficiently, but you're still gonna go a lot slower at the end of the day than you did at the beginning. If you don't figure a safe pace for the work you're increasing the chances of someone getting hurt or something getting broken.

So, the conclusion of my ramblings is that I don't think they're trying to screw you. My musings line up with their claim that it's not worth it to them to keep a guy on it full time. On the other hand, I think they are passing some costs to you that are not included in the price that they're offering. You know what they're getting for the final product, so it's safe to assume they think these things cost them $3 bucks apiece in house, so you've got a little negotiation room. (There needs to be some advantage to them for outsourcing this work, so I wouldn't expect them to go for $3 apiece.)

Of course, if I'm so xxxx smart, how come I ain't rich? That's just my analysis of the situation from 2,500 miles away.

[harrismetalsmith]

Yeah I think $1.5 is out of the question... I am going to ask for $3 and I think I can make it work at that... At $3 its around $125,000 a year worth of work...

If its that volume, it will be worth it then. Hope you get it worked out.

[monstermetal]

Lots of good thoughts... Im glad I posted this.. Most of this is the stuff that's already gone through my head a hundred times but hearing it makes it more real. I called down and set up a meeting to hash it out, I'll keep everyone posted as to the outcome. They want to shut down there shop the end of the month and move production over to mine so my guess is this will happen pretty quickly..