It appears that the process has been thought out enough to justify your price requirements, and as much as it's hard to turn work down, sometimes it's well worth running away and not look back. $1.50 each sounds way to cheap for me to even think about it.

Well my negotiations did not go well today.. They are sticking firm at the $1.50 for points and chisels, $2 for 2"-3" chisels and $3.50 for asphalt cutters He was not pleased when I told him I thought it would take $3 each for me to make a profit.. I had agreed to give it a trial run but I dont think it will sway me much... at 30 tools an hour thats $45/hr That leaves no room to actually make a wage, it will all go towards overhead and expenses.. (at least any way I run the numbers)

I read a book about a year ago Larry the whole premise of the book is summed up as, the most important thing in negotiating is not to care too much. I know easier to say than practice, but if you are counting on this work and they realize this they can dictate terms. If you are not emotionally vested in this job you have the advantage. The lack of emotional investment is why professional negotiators like the author of the book are so effective.

What are their other options? They are going to be hard pressed to find someone else to do the job for $1.50 ea. If they do they may soon find their new supplier either doing a crappy job or going broke. To continue doing them in house they have to invest in a new hammer. That is a hard decision to make when they are already unhappy with doing them in house. Often once a decision to shut something down is made changing that decision is difficult. I would do the samples and then go into the meeting being prepared to walk away if you do not get a reasonable price. Does the person you are negotiating with have the final say? You may have someone say we cannot pay that much but when they tell the boss we need to buy a new hammer things may change.

I read a book about a year ago Larry the whole premise of the book is summed up as, the most important thing in negotiating is not to care too much. I know easier to say than practice, but if you are counting on this work and they realize this they can dictate terms. If you are not emotionally vested in this job you have the advantage. The lack of emotional investment is why professional negotiators like the author of the book are so effective.

What are their other options? They are going to be hard pressed to find someone else to do the job for $1.50 ea. If they do they may soon find their new supplier either doing a crappy job or going broke. To continue doing them in house they have to invest in a new hammer. That is a hard decision to make when they are already unhappy with doing them in house. Often once a decision to shut something down is made changing that decision is difficult. I would do the samples and then go into the meeting being prepared to walk away if you do not get a reasonable price. Does the person you are negotiating with have the final say? You may have someone say we cannot pay that much but when they tell the boss we need to buy a new hammer things may change.

Yep, I was just reminding Larry today that the one willing to walk away, usually wins. Might need to rework that a bit because in a good negotiation both parties feel they won.

What was the name of the book? Sounds like a worthwhile read

Yeah, I know I got a lot more profitable jobs once I was "over the hump" and could bid high enough that I was glad to get the job and didn't care if I didn't.

   Does anyone local to the Philadelphia area wish to sharpen some bits for me? Probably have a few hundred that need sharpening. Please reply, Thanks. Joe

I keep getting asked to repoint the BIG bits (4"dia+) and have to admit I have no idea what to charge. Do any of you have experience with them? I repointed a couple 2.5" years ago and still have the die for it.

I have not done any of them but I believe they go up to  $400-500 each for sharpening.  Read Grant's advise on sharpening them from a few years ago.  He recommended using a big bandsaw to sharpen the big ones rather than forging them.    The handling of a 4- 6" point would concern me the most during forging.

Yes the price for reforging a big moil can run to $400-$500 bear in mind these moils will cost $4000 or more to buy new.  We have forged up to about 180 dia on our 5cwt hammer, but it was not a commmercially viable option as we had to get too many heats to make it worthwhile.  Under our press however is a different kettle of fish.  When we forged them under the hammer we used tongs and a chain block/monorail setup, the press we use the manipulator.

The main thing though with forging the bigger moils is having enough quenching capacity ot re heat treat them,  if we have a pallet of moils to reforge we will stagger the heat treatment over 2 or so days.

 

Phil

I average 6 min a bit, in a propane forge thats with temper, clean up on a belt sander and a light rub with scotch brite. As I do more I am sure I can drop that time down. I am sure thinking about a induction forge. If I can cost one into the job with a quick pay back I think I will pull the trigger on one. I have been told that some do not even bother with the clean up but I think it makes it look more professional and my clients like the finished product better.

what are you doing to temper them? I was asked to do 200 a week and have never done them before. Will be a nice job if i can get a good finished product. I will be doing them by hand in a gas forge. just not sure about quenching and tempering.    can you give me the best steps to get started?  the best i can come up with is heat to cherry red draw and forge let air cool and grind to a point. Then reheat to orange and quench in oil?   is that good.  what oil do you recommend to quench in.

Good Morning,

You didn't pay attention to what Grant said. Don't let them cool between forging and heat treating.

I made and used a scissor type of jaw for a hydraulic press when I first started. I use a power hammer and an induction forge now.

If you aren't using Power something, I wouldn't bother starting. I harden with water and draw the temper to straw. I have used three different quenching oils and I get the most consistent results with water.

Neil

Good Morning,

You didn't pay attention to what Grant said. Don't let them cool between forging and heat treating.

I made and used a scissor type of jaw for a hydraulic press when I first started. I use a power hammer and an induction forge now.

If you aren't using Power something, I wouldn't bother starting. I harden with water and draw the temper to straw. I have used three different quenching oils and I get the most consistent results with water.

Neil

what kind of power hammer do you have swedefiddle? Maybe i can get a power hammer in a month or so. Thanks for the input. It wont be a problem if i grind the tips after the first quench and then reheat to temper them will it?

 

Grind after Forging, when Hot.

Sounds like you are fishing for someone to  answer all your questions, Before you even try.

Neil

No i just have 6 of them to do and i dont want to screw any of them up. Im just using hand tools and dont want to have to keep reheating them. ive never tempered anything in my life except for air tempering pritchels. The guy has 200 tips a week he want me to do and he said he could get me 2000 of them a week if i do a good job so if really just saying my prayers and hoping i do a good job. im just a ferrier but hopefully this will lead to me getting a power hammer and getting a business going.   

So did you go get some for yourself to practice on?  I'd hate for the first ones for selling a job to be the first ones I have ever worked on.

Cowboy, What part of this earth are you standing on? If you add it to your Avatar, you might get some assistance.

Earth to Cowboy...........

Neil