jeremy k Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 It appears that the process has been thought out enough to justify your price requirements, and as much as it's hard to turn work down, sometimes it's well worth running away and not look back. $1.50 each sounds way to cheap for me to even think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Well my negotiations did not go well today.. They are sticking firm at the $1.50 for points and chisels, $2 for 2"-3" chisels and $3.50 for asphalt cutters He was not pleased when I told him I thought it would take $3 each for me to make a profit.. I had agreed to give it a trial run but I dont think it will sway me much... at 30 tools an hour thats $45/hr That leaves no room to actually make a wage, it will all go towards overhead and expenses.. (at least any way I run the numbers) I read a book about a year ago Larry the whole premise of the book is summed up as, the most important thing in negotiating is not to care too much. I know easier to say than practice, but if you are counting on this work and they realize this they can dictate terms. If you are not emotionally vested in this job you have the advantage. The lack of emotional investment is why professional negotiators like the author of the book are so effective. What are their other options? They are going to be hard pressed to find someone else to do the job for $1.50 ea. If they do they may soon find their new supplier either doing a crappy job or going broke. To continue doing them in house they have to invest in a new hammer. That is a hard decision to make when they are already unhappy with doing them in house. Often once a decision to shut something down is made changing that decision is difficult. I would do the samples and then go into the meeting being prepared to walk away if you do not get a reasonable price. Does the person you are negotiating with have the final say? You may have someone say we cannot pay that much but when they tell the boss we need to buy a new hammer things may change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I read a book about a year ago Larry the whole premise of the book is summed up as, the most important thing in negotiating is not to care too much. I know easier to say than practice, but if you are counting on this work and they realize this they can dictate terms. If you are not emotionally vested in this job you have the advantage. The lack of emotional investment is why professional negotiators like the author of the book are so effective. What are their other options? They are going to be hard pressed to find someone else to do the job for $1.50 ea. If they do they may soon find their new supplier either doing a crappy job or going broke. To continue doing them in house they have to invest in a new hammer. That is a hard decision to make when they are already unhappy with doing them in house. Often once a decision to shut something down is made changing that decision is difficult. I would do the samples and then go into the meeting being prepared to walk away if you do not get a reasonable price. Does the person you are negotiating with have the final say? You may have someone say we cannot pay that much but when they tell the boss we need to buy a new hammer things may change. Yep, I was just reminding Larry today that the one willing to walk away, usually wins. Might need to rework that a bit because in a good negotiation both parties feel they won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 16, 2011 Author Share Posted April 16, 2011 What was the name of the book? Sounds like a worthwhile read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Yeah, I know I got a lot more profitable jobs once I was "over the hump" and could bid high enough that I was glad to get the job and didn't care if I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfgold Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Does anyone local to the Philadelphia area wish to sharpen some bits for me? Probably have a few hundred that need sharpening. Please reply, Thanks. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason0012 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I keep getting asked to repoint the BIG bits (4"dia+) and have to admit I have no idea what to charge. Do any of you have experience with them? I repointed a couple 2.5" years ago and still have the die for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I have not done any of them but I believe they go up to $400-500 each for sharpening. Read Grant's advise on sharpening them from a few years ago. He recommended using a big bandsaw to sharpen the big ones rather than forging them. The handling of a 4- 6" point would concern me the most during forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Yes the price for reforging a big moil can run to $400-$500 bear in mind these moils will cost $4000 or more to buy new. We have forged up to about 180 dia on our 5cwt hammer, but it was not a commmercially viable option as we had to get too many heats to make it worthwhile. Under our press however is a different kettle of fish. When we forged them under the hammer we used tongs and a chain block/monorail setup, the press we use the manipulator. The main thing though with forging the bigger moils is having enough quenching capacity ot re heat treat them, if we have a pallet of moils to reforge we will stagger the heat treatment over 2 or so days. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboyup Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I average 6 min a bit, in a propane forge thats with temper, clean up on a belt sander and a light rub with scotch brite. As I do more I am sure I can drop that time down. I am sure thinking about a induction forge. If I can cost one into the job with a quick pay back I think I will pull the trigger on one. I have been told that some do not even bother with the clean up but I think it makes it look more professional and my clients like the finished product better.what are you doing to temper them? I was asked to do 200 a week and have never done them before. Will be a nice job if i can get a good finished product. I will be doing them by hand in a gas forge. just not sure about quenching and tempering. can you give me the best steps to get started? the best i can come up with is heat to cherry red draw and forge let air cool and grind to a point. Then reheat to orange and quench in oil? is that good. what oil do you recommend to quench in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Good Morning,You didn't pay attention to what Grant said. Don't let them cool between forging and heat treating.I made and used a scissor type of jaw for a hydraulic press when I first started. I use a power hammer and an induction forge now.If you aren't using Power something, I wouldn't bother starting. I harden with water and draw the temper to straw. I have used three different quenching oils and I get the most consistent results with water.Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboyup Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Good Morning,You didn't pay attention to what Grant said. Don't let them cool between forging and heat treating.I made and used a scissor type of jaw for a hydraulic press when I first started. I use a power hammer and an induction forge now.If you aren't using Power something, I wouldn't bother starting. I harden with water and draw the temper to straw. I have used three different quenching oils and I get the most consistent results with water.Neilwhat kind of power hammer do you have swedefiddle? Maybe i can get a power hammer in a month or so. Thanks for the input. It wont be a problem if i grind the tips after the first quench and then reheat to temper them will it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Grind after Forging, when Hot.Sounds like you are fishing for someone to answer all your questions, Before you even try.Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboyup Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 No i just have 6 of them to do and i dont want to screw any of them up. Im just using hand tools and dont want to have to keep reheating them. ive never tempered anything in my life except for air tempering pritchels. The guy has 200 tips a week he want me to do and he said he could get me 2000 of them a week if i do a good job so if really just saying my prayers and hoping i do a good job. im just a ferrier but hopefully this will lead to me getting a power hammer and getting a business going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 So did you go get some for yourself to practice on? I'd hate for the first ones for selling a job to be the first ones I have ever worked on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Cowboy, What part of this earth are you standing on? If you add it to your Avatar, you might get some assistance.Earth to Cowboy...........Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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