KYBOY Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I have to say over the last year and a half or since Lisa turned our forge into her business I really understand. Let me explain, at one time I could never understand why a smith wouldent just make thier own tools. They always said "It cost me more to make my own than it does to buy them"..I never "really" understood that until now. Not long ago Lisa took one day of shop time to make tools for herself. She actually lost money that day If you get $50-$60 an hour shop rate and you spend two hours making a $35 tool,,,,well you do the math :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfshieldrx Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 On the other hand, as a hobby-smith, I really enjoy making my own tools. Whether I spend my time forging tools, or making something else, its still forge time...and I enjoy every minute of it. Plus there is the intangible...I like being able to make something else using tools that I made myself. If I depended on my forging to keep me fed and living indoors, I would probably feel differently, but for me the ability to make my own tools has a BIG cool factor. bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 A while back, my apprentice and I made 2 hot cut hardy's out of H13. While they turned out perfect, I won't complain next time I see one for sale at $45. But we both learned some really neat swear words that day too, If you have never hand worked 1.5 inch round H13 before, give it a try away from young ears :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I have to say over the last year and a half or since Lisa turned our forge into her business I really understand. Let me explain, at one time I could never understand why a smith wouldent just make thier own tools. They always said "It cost me more to make my own than it does to buy them"..I never "really" understood that until now. Not long ago Lisa took one day of shop time to make tools for herself. She actually lost money that day If you get $50-$60 an hour shop rate and you spend two hours making a $35 tool,,,,well you do the math On the other hand, as a hobby-smith, I really enjoy making my own tools. Whether I spend my time forging tools, or making something else, its still forge time...and I enjoy every minute of it. Plus there is the intangible...I like being able to make something else using tools that I made myself. If I depended on my forging to keep me fed and living indoors, I would probably feel differently, but for me the ability to make my own tools has a BIG cool factor. bart well, practice makes for speed. I can make dozens of blacksmith tongs in a day................and can sell them at twenty bucks per and make money. Three separate, valid, and excellent points of view. From different perspectives the same problem has many different best answers. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 The above points made are good for genaric tooling - as when one needs a custom tool, you still need to take the time and make them. Although, usually this time is billed in with the job and you get to keep the tool - so who makes money? The blacksmith that can make his own tools. - JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 The above points made are good for genaric tooling - as when one needs a custom tool, you still need to take the time and make them. Although, usually this time is billed in with the job and you get to keep the tool - so who makes money? The blacksmith that can make his own tools. - JK Yup. And making your own tooling makes you unique when you're talking shapes,textures, etc. A few years ago I picked up some of Sarver's's OCP ball swages at an auction. They're really sweet and come out perfect every time but I tend to deform them mostly because I don't want Grant's balls on my work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 As a hobby smith I don't make my own tongs---I'd rather spend the time making other things and as the most money I've spent on a set of tongs was $10 for the Ti set I picked up at Q-S this year I don't see how making my own "helps". I *have* made tongs in the past I just prefer to weld up billets to making tongs. I tend to modify a lot of items into tools rather than starting "de novo" though the slitting chisel I forged from 1.25" H13 is one that started as round. I picked up a number of old mangled tools at Q-S this year to use as starter materials to specific tools I wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I have to say over the last year and a half or since Lisa turned our forge into her business I really understand. Let me explain, at one time I could never understand why a smith wouldent just make thier own tools. They always said "It cost me more to make my own than it does to buy them"..I never "really" understood that until now. Not long ago Lisa took one day of shop time to make tools for herself. She actually lost money that day If you get $50-$60 an hour shop rate and you spend two hours making a $35 tool,,,,well you do the math She only lost money if she had paying work lined up for that time. In many cases making tools is a way to get good at forging, while tooling up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksnagel Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 She only lost money if she had paying work lined up for that time. In many cases making tools is a way to get good at forging, while tooling up. I agree. If there was no paying customer lined up then I don't see it as a loss. But then again I am but a mere hobby blacksmith in the learning stages so what do I know. (little) As a hobby blacksmith, I need all the practice I can get, so tools are a great way for me to learn. I sell some small items but do not rely on them to feed me, only my blacksmithing habit. Maybe someday I'll rely on it for a living or additional income and then I'll worry about the time lost. Until then, I'm just having fun. Mark<>< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYBOY Posted December 9, 2010 Author Share Posted December 9, 2010 See thats it, she does have paying work. Lined up til well after christmas as of right now. I can make my own hammers, most of my tongs I made myself, all the tooling etc. Now we could spend 4-5 hours making a hammer (Lisa could but would take her longer than that) or buy a great hammer for $70 or so. Or spend those 4-5 hours making $250-$300.. I use to feel the same way but im tell'n ya', things change when your not a hobby smith anymore.Well I still am really but she aint . I just wanted to point out now I feel bad for poking at a very fine smith for buying tools Lisa also has a business degree so she's fast to point out things that cost profit I know that often times you have to make a certaint tool and thats fine. I really mean for her its a loss if she spends all day making tools that she can buy "x" ammount cheaper than she can make them. We have a lot of custom tools. We sell a load of hawks and axes. We have no less than half doz pair of tongs, a drifting post, hardy and guillotine tools, "x"(meaning a load) ammount of drifts, stamps and hot cuts designed specifically for making axes and hawks. All of which you cant buy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 All valid arguments and the mathematics will win in the end. If you are a hobby smith then making basic tools is a great way to improve your skills and gives you forge time in a sturctured way. I think I spend more time making tools than the final article. However, if you decide to buy your tools so you can get right into those projects you want to do then that is a valid argument as well. Afterall many of us spend LOTS more on other hobbies than $40 here or there on a set of tongs that will last a lifetime if they are looked after properly. Now, for professional smiths the equation is relatively simpiler. If you have paying work lined up which will make more money in the time it takes to make the tool then buy it and claim it as a tax deduction. If you have no paying work lined up at the time then use the time to tool up and keep your hand in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajajoaquin Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 They're really sweet and come out perfect every time but I tend to deform them mostly because I don't want Grant's balls on my work. Really? Nobody is going to touch this one? (sorry, couldn't resist) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I don't want Grant's balls on my work. Um....yea. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 If he don't want them on his work, Why should any of us want to touch them ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie C. Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I would recomend that you should a least make one pair of tongs. They can be a challenge and you will learn different techniques that work and don't work. Its a good lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Evers Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I'm more of a farrier than a blacksmith, just lurk around here a bit. They're all good arguments subject to constraints. I remember some time back at a big horse show I was watching the show farrier make shoes. He was telling someone that he got better shoes cheaper by making them. At that time, I felt I could make a pair of shoes about a dollar cheaper than buying them and I could do 4 or 5 pairs/hr. Now it's been nearly 50 years since I was willing to work for $5 an hour, but he had to be there anyhow, making shoes attracted attention so he might as well make some shoes. Today the cheapest bar stock that I can buy is already made into a horse shoe. It still might make sense to make shoes and attract an audience but it's still cheaper to buy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 You cant buy every tool you are ever going to need. If you never learn how to be a passable tool maker you will be at a disadvantage because you will not be able to solve your own problems. One tool I made I have used to do over $25,000 worth of work. It took days to make but in the long run it has saved me weeks of time. That being said would I make a pair of tongs I could buy a this point in my career. I might because I can make a pair in about 25 -30 min. After I sit down look up what I want, place the order and wait a couple days for it to show up it took me 15 min to do that. Most of the time I figure out that I need this tool in the middle of the job and need it right away. Its a wash depends really on my work load and how much cash I have. But I took the time to get good enough to do that. If you never took the time you will never have the skills. Do I need many tongs at this point not really. I Probably have about 30 pairs. I have made about a third of my tools another third are used tools I fixed up and the last third are new ones I bought or traded. Anyway that works I say in respect to this issue. But you should have the skills and hone them. Can one really call themselves a blacksmith if they can't make some tools? Its such a huge part of our trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYBOY Posted December 10, 2010 Author Share Posted December 10, 2010 Its very important to know how to make tools. I have thru out my forging "career" made almost every tool we have. The power hammer too. I even built the building, floored it and wired it. The only thing we have bought is one gas forge(lisa ownt use coal) and a few flea market items. Oh and the anvils. The coal forge is homemade, almost all the tongs etc..Even if lisa wasnt running it as a business Ive come to a point where we can make anything for the shop we need but dont have to anymore. Except for the specialty tools. Id rather work on a Tomahawk or an axe now.. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I'm more talking about forging tools. I would never think I could make a power hammer cheaper than I could buy one I'm not an expert on building power hammers. I would not do construction work on my shop other than simple maintenance because I'm not a carpenter. Im talking about making a hot cut for the anvil with 1 3/8" hardie hole, tongs to hold a c scroll just so that you have to make 400 , a curved hot chisel or a power hammer tool to forge an egg shape. On these things I am an expert. The list goes on and on. As for machines there are plenty of good used machines (designed and built by people who know tons more about that thing than I ever will) on the market right now for good prices. Would I make a hand hammer I could buy? only if I did it in my spare time for fun, just to say I did it. I just did a large repousse job and I could not buy one single tool I needed I had to make them all from scratch. In fact I wasn't even sure what tools I really needed until I was way into the job. If I could have bought them I would have but no tools=no job=no money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpotter Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I was given some advice by a goldsmith who used to get on me about making all of my own tools. He said you can spend your time making tools or you can spend your time making money. I liked making tools better than making jewelry so that is what I do. I buy lots of tools but I make what I can. I make stakes dies and small presses for a living but I made a 100 ton presses for my self since there is no way I could afford to buy one as nice as what I built. I buy my milling machines and lathes since I cant make as nice a one as I can buy, I tried it is a waste of time. My friend has a smithing magician and I said why didnt you just make one and he said why I dont need to prove to anyone that I can make one, just buy one and use it. That is good advice do what you do best and let others do what they do best, I dont forge gates and furniture like my friend I make tools and Harold makes great stuff with tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBrann Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 I am really enjoying watching this one.... there are several points, and they just go round and round. And I agree with all of them. I make tools .. because I am cheap, and just so I can say that I can... but I also buy tools and equipment because I don't need to re invent the wheel. When folks talk about making tools.. not once have I seen anyone make an electric motor from scratch... they either find purchase or recycle one... why .. because it will never be cost effective .. or even reasonably efficient to build a large horsepower electric motor from scratch. Same thing with hydraulic or pneumatic components... Is it more cost effective to build at home a 4 inch angle grinder.. or buy a decent one from the store? If you are in the moment that you need a tool now... and it is a surprise... just make it .. and use it often... if you are making 500 of something and a specialized tool would help.. make it.... I know that I don't want to spend time making drill bits .. or hack saw blades .. or files ... or any number of other consumable parts... I want to forge.. whatever strikes my fancy... That being said I spent a day making a hacksaw frame for myself.. because I could not find a frame at the Big Box store that would support the blade and stay reasonable true.... I have since sold 3 of them for $70.... some people liked the look and feel. Did it work better than the 20 commercial one .. I think so... was it worth my 6 hour of forging.. and finishing etc ... I think so I do get tired of making the tool.. to make the tool that I need... but ... I have learned many things that way.. Take it for what its worth Cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 Very infrequently do I make tools that are readily available on the open market.I buy used tools and then modify them sometimes to get the results I need but that just means I`m using an old(or new for that matter) tool as a roughly shaped source of material. I see little sense in spending time making an exact copy of something that is readily available.Why do that when you can buy it? I WILL make a tool if I can`t buy it in either a configuration that fits me(like left handed),an alloy a current maker doesn`t use (like HSS),or what I`m making is a custom application that needs to be repeated accurately or more than a few times(like jigs,hammerforms or dies). One thing I am real bad about though is modifying the bejesus out of machines to get them to do what I want.That would include simple machines like anvils. I have a number of custom made tool rests for varying machines that allow me to freehand things because I find the stock stuff too limiting.I also have a real bad habit of removing guards on things like wheels and cutters.To make up for this I make larger "area guards" and find new ways to hold the work more securely. When I`m done working at the machine I will put all guards back in place if I know someone else will be in the area and has even a small chance of being near the machine.If in doubt I will lock that machine out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 See thats it, she does have paying work. Lined up til well after christmas as of right now. I can make my own hammers, most of my tongs I made myself, all the tooling etc. Now we could spend 4-5 hours making a hammer (Lisa could but would take her longer than that) or buy a great hammer for $70 or so. Or spend those 4-5 hours making $250-$300.. I use to feel the same way but im tell'n ya', things change when your not a hobby smith anymore.Well I still am really but she aint . I just wanted to point out now I feel bad for poking at a very fine smith for buying tools Lisa also has a business degree so she's fast to point out things that cost profit I know that often times you have to make a certaint tool and thats fine. I really mean for her its a loss if she spends all day making tools that she can buy "x" ammount cheaper than she can make them. We have a lot of custom tools. We sell a load of hawks and axes. We have no less than half doz pair of tongs, a drifting post, hardy and guillotine tools, "x"(meaning a load) ammount of drifts, stamps and hot cuts designed specifically for making axes and hawks. All of which you cant buy.. I'm just making assumptions and offering a possible solution; Lisa is your daughter? Wife? No matter. If you don't depend on smithing as a living, but Lisa does, and you are still enjoying the craft as a hobby, why not just make the tools for Lisa while she continues to perform work that generates income. Seems like a win/win situation. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braedon Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 I'm just making assumptions and offering a possible solution; Lisa is your daughter? Wife? No matter. If you don't depend on smithing as a living, but Lisa does, and you are still enjoying the craft as a hobby, why not just make the tools for Lisa while she continues to perform work that generates income. Seems like a win/win situation. Scott Holy crap! that was such an obvious solution,,hahahaa reading through all these threads that never once came to mind! Sometimes when I just wanna step back from a project I am doing,,(either ta cool down) or just because I am bored with the monotany I will make a tool, or tools I have been needing,,then go back to the project with a fresh head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 well, practice makes for speed. I can make dozens of blacksmith tongs in a day................and can sell them at twenty bucks per and make money. OK 20 tongs at $20= 400 Devided by 8 =$50 per 8 hr minus matl and overhead. Jearking your chain. It's a loss if your making a living at it. I do it cause I want to not cause I enjoy it. If it's an obsolete part or just one ya can't find then I enjoy it. Got a lot of 80+yr farmers with 60+yr equipment. Dealer tells them Junk it and buy a new one. Anybody want to spend $40,000 on a tractor when your 80+ yrs old. After turning 65 it's not about the money anymore it's keeping theese olduns going. After all I might be one someday. Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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