I confess...

[thecelticforge]

I confess that I did not wish to embrace modern technology for two reasons. There are certain sets of skills that I think are needed by every blacksmith that often times are not learned well if at all because it is easier to do things "the fast way." Also, my father was a cheapskate. There is no way around it. He bought the least expensive equipment that he could. That I think really turned me off of modern techniques.

I have had a good year in the forge, so much so, I splurged. I now have a power hammer, a very nice welder, a metal chop saw, and other assorted toys. I now realize that my distrust was unfounded and I have changed many of my opinions.

However, I still recommend having an excellent foundation in the basic and advanced skills first before one tries to make a living with a hammer. That then would be a good time to get all the toys.


Wind Chapman

[ianinsa]

Plasma-cutter v hammer and chisel,
The later can be quite efficient if you have the skill,
The former remains just a tad easier, faster and more accurate.(a dash less skill req. too)
Modern is also a relative concept so I'll bet the farm that a shaper(modern?) would beat the pants off :man with file.
Do'nt get me wrong I love(my wife says obsessed and sometimes me'thinks she exagerates) old tools and equipment. But to be comercially viable we sometimes need the modern kit.
Ian

[John B]

to quote Mr C
However, I still recommend having an excellent foundation in the basic and advanced skills first before one tries to make a living with a hammer. That then would be a good time to get all the toys.

I would agree, If you have the skills on the anvil and the techniques learnt, then you will be able to utilise them and get the best from your powerhammers and other modern tools available.

However I would also add that the so called 'Fast way' he talks about is not necessarily true in all cases. A lot of the time it is easier and quicker to do certain tasks in the 'traditional way' rather than try to fake things to look like it was done traditionally,

You will have a better understanding of how the metals respond, and the operations/sequences needed to benefit from and appreciate the 'modern' tools if you have the experience of the forging skills.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Wonderful news,Mr C,to've been able to get all the tooling,congratulations!

I second what everyone said,well put.

Taking Ian's example about the chisel,the trapezoidal sections left by hot-cutting(i can only do it from the one side)are very characteristic in and of themselves.I wouldn't trade them for any mechanised cut,they add so much volume to the work.
However,the chisel can be driven by a mech.hammer,to provide that same effect,but saving you the wear on your body,and possibly making your work more affordable to the customer.

They say that Yellin got an arc welder the moment that the machine became available.But he used it very wisely,and did not allow it to change the process governed by the timeless hand-skills.

I may've gotten my metaphors backwards,but something like that.Anyway,what them other guys said! And enjoy your great new tools!

[ThomasPowers]

Well the earliest documentation I've seen for a power hammer was pre 1000, (Medieval Technology Conference at Penn State about 20 years ago...)

So if you are forging with coal you are already past the powerhammer date!

Though "Luddites" were worried that machinery/technology was going to take away employment from workers so the powerhammer replacing several strikers would have been on their "bad" list.

[thecelticforge]

I just made a fire place poker using my welder. All I had to do was heat and hammer and I will be darned if I can tell the difference between electrical and forge weld on the finished piece.

[John B]

So, are you saying you can't forge weld quick enough?

If so you may need to practice, But then again you may find it easier to reach for the welder in which case why practice,

Your poker will probably be indistiguishable from a forge welded join, if you are happy with the end product, thats fine, whatever works for you.

[shortdog]

I think maybe it comes down to the soul of the thing you're working on. Granted, people aren't always willing to pay for soul.

I've always been a fan of old tools. When working with wood, I prefer my drawknife and spokeshave over any power tool out there. While building a skiff several years ago, I discovered that I could saw planks out by hand twice as fast as I could cut them with my jigsaw. I think the point I'm trying to make is that doing things by hand rather than by machine gives us more of a connection with our work. It makes it more of a part of us. The sad part is that production often outpaces what our bodies can provide. That's when all those machines become wonderful things.

[Frank Turley]

Peter Ross gave the keynote address at the Asheville, NC, ABANA conference a few years ago. He talked about our society's "machine mentality." We are inured to buying things off the shelf that are perhaps shiny and everything is exactly at right angles or has exactly the right curves. For instance, a bread toaster or a pair of pliers. He talked of a smith he knew who could not help but have the same mentality. This acquaintance was forging something that he needed to cut in half. He quenched the piece and walked 60 feet to the far end of his shop where he chop-sawed it. Then he returned to the forge to reheat and continue. Of course, the machine cut was neat and shiny (a machine mentality cut), but Ross wondered why in the world he did not use the hardie. We know that the hardie cut distorts and draws the stock minimally, but who cares? It's going to be forged anyway, and it's still hot! No reheating.

I think that Ross was warning us to be aware of this sort of mentality and to use the forge where easily applicable.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[Bryce Masuk]

Like they say, Stay true to yourself

The World, Women and Metal are all the same

The more you try to control the more likely you are being tricked into something else

do you want things you dont use? probley... were programed for that stuff nowadays

I say Did it! Not DO it

I will use whatever makes me happy, if it doesnt I always have a hammer

[Spears]

I love posts like this so I'm throwing in a few words. Traditional methods add value to the project because of the extra time it takes to complete those certain processes. Let it be my opinion if you oppose, but I consider it fair to call it added value. I myself don’t do much of it or any of it for that matter but I like to look at it. I’m very non-traditional in my forging and artwork. I have taken some criticism for it but that’s just life. We all take the easy way around certain chores in the workshop. I’ve seen many a blacksmith pick up an electric sander. Gee wiz! How dare him not use a hand file or honing stone! I was at a house demonstration where a top notch blacksmith forge welded a small vine to go around a glass vial used for seed sprouting and the second one he made was Mig welded and filed. I thought it was excellent how he demonstrated both processes (both looked top notch). Some joker had to yell something about authenticity when the Mig welding was going on. Just starting out in blacksmithing I can say I felt more comfortable around the guy who smiled and said “it’s hard to beat Miller welding”. If you’re going to recruit or inspire people to partake in the metal arts, don’t you think they should be introduced with processes having a bigger window of “ease of completion” than say forge welding? How cool is authenticity? Isn’t it only fools who take the long way around? Guy must have a lot of time on his hands! Myyy hero! The world is full of words and opinions. Do what you like and sell it as you will, but if you want to gather or involve new people, it will need to be a bit more like honey as opposed to vinegar. Peace. Spears.

[thecelticforge]

So, are you saying you can't forge weld quick enough?

I can forge weld as easily as I can breath and about as fast, 30 years. In that time a ma either gets better, quits, or dies.

I just have a new toy and was wanting to play with it. But be at peace, I have found some things in which only a forge well will do for, and few things are a pleasing to the eye as a well done rivet. ;)

[Bentiron1946]

Tools are good. I got to the point with my studio mate where I told him to shut up and leave me alone, I was making art he was making history, or at least trying to. He wanted to make everything as they did in the past and I just wanted to use the techniques, not the whole way of life of the past. I live here and now, not here and then as he tried to do. If a arc welder got the job done better and faster, I was all for it and he thought it sacrilege. He near passed out when I built my first gas forge, what a good laugh I had when I caught him using it one day. So much for only doing the proper way. :D

[monstermetal]

I have heard a story about a fellow smith who rattle canned all his shiny new tools flat black so they looked more the part of a blacksmith shop

[jake pogrebinsky]

As good Mr Clemens once said:"There're worse things than burning books;one is not reading them...".Or something to that effect.

Seems like the old ways have to a large extent defined the look of made objects.
So,since we've learned at least some of those ways of working,and have played with those shapes,et c.,the proof is probably to be best looked for in the pudding.

Mr C,can we perchance have a look at the poker? :)

[John B]

Tools are good. I got to the point with my studio mate where I told him to shut up and leave me alone, I was making art he was making history, or at least trying to. He wanted to make everything as they did in the past and I just wanted to use the techniques, not the whole way of life of the past. I live here and now, not here and then as he tried to do. If a arc welder got the job done better and faster, I was all for it and he thought it sacrilege. He near passed out when I built my first gas forge, what a good laugh I had when I caught him using it one day. So much for only doing the proper way.

There is no proper way, there is a way that works for you(remembering safety), and that you are satisfied with the finished item.

I have no problems with using tools, but good basic skills gives you more understanding when using them and developing them, and that leads to appreciating them.

They are just another tool at my disposal to achieve the results I want, If I don't have a suitable one (tool or method), it either gets made/developed, or another way is found, and if that doesn't work, I post a question on this site.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I can see knowing how to do something by hand in case you need to make something, and the other tools are not available.

If you have a lot of time, and you want to do something all by hand, go for it. If you want to get the job done so you can get the next project out of the way, use the power tools. When it is all said and done, most people cannot tell the difference between hand made, and when power tools are utilized.

Tim needed to cut his forklift tine in half, so he grabbed his trusty hacksaw. 2.5 movies later it was cut. I took the other half to work, and cut it in 45 seconds on our horizontal DoAll. I love the time savings that tools can give me. We only have so much time to spend on this planet, how do you want to spend it? The answer is different for everyone.

[HWooldridge]

Someone famous once said that the customer only sees the last ten minutes of your work - e.g. something like a damascus knife or perfect scroll doesn't mean a whole unless you know how much sweat and knowledge goes into the crafting of same.

Personally, I have always been interested in the end product so the means to get there is less important than how it looks when complete. With that said, I'd always rather do it the "fast" way if quality doesn't suffer in the final product - and that means using any tool to get there... ;)

[tlreif]

Do you suppose they were having a discussion about that new fan dangled thing that holds the work by turning a screw? Or someone just didn't like the smell and or the heat that coal made? Or whatever the new gadget was. The thing to remember here is the fact that an arc welder doesn't just put a weld down by osmosis. Whatever the tool is that we say is not traditional still has one thing in common with just about any other tool and that is it still takes a human to operate it. Just because someone owns a welder does not mean they know how to use it properly. It is still a skill set that needs to be learned. So you use a welder, It is still joined together by hand. It took hands to guide the weld. IMO.

[Dragons lair]

Here is the quiz. Can ya take 2 12 inch pieces of 1/2 X 4 HRS and forge weld it into a 24 1/4 piece of 1/2X4?
How long to cut out 10,000 inches of 1/4" letters with a chisel? A power hammer can and does 200 BPM with a 50lb hammer. Can you? Do any one here really belive if offered to an 1800s smith any of the modern tools they would refuse? I see it every day " coal forges add carbon to RR spikes gas forges do not" and "RR spikes make the best knives as they are high carbon". Why do we hunt with a 300 win mag insted of a .32 or .45 cal front loader?
Use what ya got and are good with. An acre with a sythe or a diesel tractor upto to ya all. I hammer when I can
and modern when its best.
Ken.

[jake pogrebinsky]

MUCH depends on what the end purpose is.Considering the outward appearance,for example:
(And i presume that the discussion is still on ironwork).

The tools differ by the effect that they leave on work.

A punch/drift leaves a bulge on the outside of stock.
This makes a mortise/tenon joint look a certain way.

Chisel slit is very characteristic also.

Riveting looks different,and also is a mechanically specific device.

Tapers are very visually appealing,and are best achieved by forging vs fabrication.

Chemically treated/oiled/whatever oxide scale is a finish all it's own.If an object is only partially hot-forged,then the finish on the whole object must be taken one direction,scaled,or the other-scrubbed and painted,or it'll look weird,patchy,et c.

Tools are not very interchangable.Their effects neither.It's just a matter of choice as far as the outcome is concerned.

I've read about how this amazing smith,Enrique Vega,discovered that the forge-weld was exactly what was called for in this particular,floral element.The man is tooled-up like not many other as far as the intense fabrication goes,it was just the best technology FOR THE JOINT(visually or structurally).

Naturally,there's a significant overlap between the forging(deformation)and fabrication(reduction).
I also knew a man who turned his tenons on a lathe.He also,on occasion,achieved "forged" texture using a grinder.Was it easier/cheaper/faster,more expedient?It depends on personal preference and circumtances,that all differ.

But some things are just easier achieved by their original technologies.Flame-cut,say,that some use as decorative element,it would be silly to fake it with forging.But then again,stranger things has happened.

Much in real forging is falling away because of it's slowness and difficulty.It isn't often that one sees,say,that special upset-drawn-out-to-tenon,that the British smiths did on the bottom end of the hinge-side of gate.
Details like that give ironwork a certain character,and some of these details are quite difficult to duplicate with fabrication.

So,it all depends !

P.S.I do,personally,object to the logic expressed above as far as that the customer won't know the difference.You bet he/she will-I'll make xxxx sure that they do!I've been forging a long time,love it,and take it very seriously,i don't want someone to remain ignorant of just how much went into this work.And why it took 10 times as long because i thought that it MUST be tenoned together.
The customer seeks me out because i'm informed about forging.I'll tell them where it's at,because it's what i do.And i'll listen to them,and take their advice when i buy insurance,or milk,from them!
(But then i've earned my (bad)attitude as i've been starving a long time for it! )

[ianinsa]

Well this thread has gone full circle and gone meandering off into yonder meadow!

Forging is forging and it matters little to most clients weather it is done with a rock on a block or with a powerhammer .

I'm not sugesting that one conpares a hand wrought item with a sintered 'copy'.

What I am saying is 'that's a fine pair of tongs and I'll use them' not 'those tongs were made by xxxxx on a series of machines using an induction heater(I know I saw the video) and therefore they will contaminate my work'.

'True luddites' would have none of the Powerhammer/induction heater stuff, Therefore I respectfully sugest that the 'extremists' 'bite the bullet' rather than use some new fangled injectable painkiller when they next hurt themselves(which I hope they don't).

Mechanisation has been a boon to most, yet sadly it too has killed off many a trade. I Still consider myself a Blacksmith despite having/using Inverters, plasmacutters,bending, folding, stamping,rolling,etc.etc. machines. And I would certainly fight off anyone trying to disposess me of my anvills,hammers,tongsetc.etc. too.

Thus I say "down with Luddites and yay to tradisionalists" or was that "down with tradisionalists and yay to Luddites"
Fortunatly most of us live where we can and do and say "to each his own"
Ian

[Mainely,Bob]

I think Jake hit on a very good point here.If you`re using one process to mimic or imitate another then you either don`t have the skills needed or may be attempting to pass yourself off as something you are not.
The whole "Achieved forged texture with a grinder" thing made me cringe.To me this is the departure point,you don`t take something from the lathe and then hammer it to make it look forged or use a grinder to make something look like a hammer made it.You either invest the time to do what is really needed or hand it off to someone who can do it and give THEM the credit for being a blacksmith.To do otherwise is,well,FORGERY!

The "ornamental ironwork" that has been cast is a fraud and deceives the customer because they feel they may be protecting their property or family just as people have sought to do since the dawn of blacksmithing when in reality any criminal with a steel bar or hammer has ready access to their home with a few swings of that object .I have also seen these same cast iron "safety rails" give way and fracture from the impact of a falling human body only to become more dangerous and inflict horrible cuts and puncture wounds instead of deflecting a fall that would have brought perhaps only bruises.Forged ironwork(more rightly forged steel)provides both more safety and better protection.You can drive a car into a well constructed forged gate and the car will come out the loser.
A blacksmith should know the material better than any other tradesman because he works it on a more intimate and elemental level.Let the designers,engineers and architects talk costs,crunch numbers and shuffle paper.When it comes time to build to achieve the best possible end result the man standing at the forge is your best source for the widest spectrum of answers based on real world experience.

[Larry H]

It takes a lot more time to " forge " a forge weld than to make one. Laying down a bead then grinding it away, smoothing it so you can't see the grind marks, then heating it back up to even out the color, it all seems like a waste of valuable time

[monstermetal]

Quote "
I also knew a man who turned his tenons on a lathe.He also,on occasion,achieved "forged" texture using a grinder.Was it easier/cheaper/faster,more expedient?It depends on personal preference and circumtances,that all differ."



In my opinion this has nothing to do with forgery or machinery.... It has to do with lazy, incompetence and un-craftsman like behavior.


There is a place where a hand held grinder is the perfect tool for the job... And there is a time where a file is the perfect tool for the job... You can not (well you can but in my opinion only a fool would do so) judge a peice of ironwork solely by the method used to create it. It is quite possible to create a horrendous ugly abomination using only traditional, time tested and correct technique. It is also possible to create a incredible stunning masterpiece that will be revered for hundreds of years in the worlds finest gallery's and museums...

The tool gives value to the user of the tool, not the work... The work must stand on its own