I confess...

[Mainely,Bob]

First rule of any shop regardless of trade;Keep the wolf away from the door.
Quick translation=If you can`t pay your bills you won`t stay open for long.

[monstermetal]

Great Stuff Ian Well said. Thats what the "REAL" work world is like no matter where in the world you are! Most of the "purists" are also hobbyists with an alternate income stream and the rest work that way as a personal choice, not as a preferred & viable business model... There are no doubt many who can survive working as a Luddite but if we all vowed to follow none but the traditional path the blacksmiths community would vanish into oblivion... No matter how "pure" your heart is a business is about turning a profit (or in the case of a blacksmith trying to not go hungry & cold and still manage to buy a few bits of steel)

Looking forward to those pictures!

[jake pogrebinsky]

Well Jake,not knowing your approach to the work I would say look at your time and see where you can cut that first.

[ianinsa]

Jake,

When it comes down to it "There is no glass is fine that it can match the frailty of the fragile ego" I've got a thick hide(and skull some say).

The debate is valid and good!

Some of our(and I say our as it is a collective effort)work makes me as proud as punch! Some less so! Many years ago when I converted what was a sometime hobby into a fully fledged buisness I got a reality check of note. Buisness running, goods going out the door, staff to pay- bank overdraft maxed out, The big OH F... Moment.

Reality check time. I have sometimes(like many small buisness owners) gone for months without a salary. Thank the lord for 'the good wife' who has financially supported both me and my buisness in bad times. I have ALWAYS paid my employees.
Sometimes my bankers and landlords have had to be patient and then got paid(my deepest apreciation). I have put up with all kinds of hardships to make ends meet and in so doing was eventually rewarded.

The point I try to make is, we compete in a global market where the criteria is often diametricaly oposed . For some it's the quality for some it's the price, for many it's a ballancing act. Much of our work comes from international tenders.
There are dozens of third world countries that produce brilliant work at knockdown prices- we sometimes see prices of finished goods for less than the cost of our raw materials- Thus stuff the ego how do we compete? mindset.
I love(and hate sometimes) the buisiness but it has(overall) been good to me.
It's real and heartfelt to many smiths that the industry is 'cheapened' yet if the same was aplied to cars how many of us would have a Bently? And not go for the old VW Rabbit that you could afford and walk instead?
As I said before you have horses for courses.
Ian

[Mainely,Bob]

Do you warranty your work?
When I say warranty I mean do you offer something along the lines of what Grant does,"If it ever breaks I replace it".Grant`s like the LL Bean of blacksmithing.
For me this is the cut off point on more than one level.If I make it my way then I stand behind it,period.This simple point keeps me from cutting too many corners and being VERY selective in my materials and processes.
Now if the customer wants to supply the materials or spec them themselves then I remind them that that effects the warranty.My worksmanship warranty is still in effect but if the material fails then it`s on them.
Likewise if the potential customer wants me to incorporate substandard pieces in the job then I tell them the warranty is void right from the start,I guarantee nothing.This does one of two things it either gets the potential customer`s thinking right or it gets them moving out the door.I have found that a customer that expects you to cut corners and incorporate parts and pieces of dubious quality or origin all in the name of cutting costs and STILL wants you to guarantee the work is just a recurring nightmare in the making.That type of person is better sent to the "bargain boys" who have an "out of sight guarantee".As soon as the truck`s out of sight the guarantee`s up.
I also lift an excellent line from one of my friends;"You came here looking for quality but what you really want is cheap.For that may I suggest the thrift store or Salvation Army downtown.You may be able to find quality items for cheap down there but you better hurry as those things tend to disappear quickly".

[ianinsa]

Do you warranty your work?

We are a business, we operate within a miriad of provincial and national laws, cheap and cheerful does not mean delinquent and degenerate. We NEED repeat business! If you EVER provide sub-standard goods your name will disappear off the list of approved tenderers. Our guarantee covers for a year of 'normal' use i.e. 'fit for purpose'.

What I was eluding to was; machine formed/wrought fishtails/scrolls etc. stamped/pressed domes buttons leaves and profiles etc. a lot of the stuff be put together is from commercial tubing, textured / embossed in a Chinese / Turkish made machine(similar to if not superior to hebo) all tig welded with 309L. From a quality point of veiw= not junk! Gold finish is paint but for acsents we use 'Baroque Art' guilders paste. Fillers are epoxy.

Our 'prime' wrought iron product = all solid bar, exvvept for hand manipulated tube, we flatten the edges either with rollers or by stroke sander/grinder to give old world feel and look to bars i.e. crisp square edge. hand forged leaves,fishtails scrolls etc. The layman will not 'see' the weld be it forge,arc, mig or tig.If it has a gold finish it is gold leaved if joints etc need filling we lead fill like body shops of old, This product is prime and 5* 'fit for purpose'

Sadly I can ascribe some of our local work fall-off due to affirmative action- the major hotel groups now negotiate contracts with us on items deemed too difficult or that have already been duffed up.

The 'difference in our type of work' is often more in the eye of the blacksmith and not so much in the eye of the general metalworker.

Ian

[Mainely,Bob]

Ian,I hope you don`t think any part of my post was aimed in your direction as that was not the case.
If I have a direct reply to something someone has stated then I usually try to quote them in my reply.

My last post was just my thoughts on how I sort out both my approach to the work and how I get a feel for the mindset of the potential customer.Please don`t think it was aimed at anyone or anything in particular as it was just sent out to the community at large to do with as they please.
As you have probably guessed if you`ve read a few of my posts I am in the position of having to wear many hats and do what I can to keep paying the bills and feed my mixed medium creative side.
During the summer when all the high dollar vacation folks are up here the "money flows like wine" to quote a Little Feat song and the blacksmithing dollars are usually good.During the winter everybody hunkers down and hopes that the 1 or 2 big jobs they landed during the summer surge will see them thru till spring.I usually augment my income by doing other metalworking and mechanic work as well as whatever comes my way that is only minimally blacksmith related as it may involve the repair /maintenance of metal tools/equipment.In that respect Jake and I have a lot more in common than low temps during the winter.
If anyone is at all interested in further explanation of this let me know here or by PM and I`ll be happy to discuss it further.If not,I`ll let to go.

[Dillon Sculpture]

Since it's my day off, from hammering not drinking, I'd like to say HEAD, HAND and HEART. All a factor when producing the work, my struggle is with the last above all, I know where the money is, my hands are certainly capable but my heart is the battle field. Working to my potential vrs. what I'm asked to do, I feel that is the bottom line and the challenge most days I walk in my shop. Does all the crap you see come from the heart? NO! It's only purpose is to line the wallet, that is where we differ, the self respect and acknowledgment that we have been put here to make an object or idea of worth to ourself above all.

[ianinsa]

HI Bob,
I answerer the question on g/tee and then got carried away! No barb felt anyhow.
Ian

[jake pogrebinsky]

Gentlemen,in case it doesn't come across by means of my garbled writing,i do have a TREMENDOUS respect for all of you for succeeding materially,within the modern economy.
I really cannot overemphasise that,my hat is most humbly off to all of you.

Making ends meet is a big deal in life,needless to say,maybe the biggest.I am an absolute looser in that respect,worse than anyone you've ever known,and so speak from the position of utter abasement.All that in case anyone suspects me for implying a least disrespect.

Ian,i'm not aware of any 3rd world ironwork for sale in US that is actually good,and dirt cheap.It could be the regional difference,or simply my ignorance.All that i've seen in the box-stores is a breeze to compete against in terms of quality.

By the way,if i may ask you to elaborate on the meaning of "horses for courses",i'm sorry,learned English too late in life...I do so love many British expressions,the "bespoke" ironwork sounds so cool,and others,iron-related and not.


Bob,surprisingly,given what a royal screw-up i am as a businessman,what little i have done went very well.
Years ago,my friend and mentor Phil Koontz have made a set of cabinetmaker's bench holdfasts for someone.It went over so well that we've been making those for years.
Anymore,i'm mostly the one to attend to that part of our business,Phil often being too busy.
The company policy is to ship the tools first,let the person try them out,and only if they're happy,then they send us the check for it.
Since i'm not that busy,i also send the order out very quickly,sometimes in a day or two.
All that has been really appreciated by folks,we get a lot of very pleasantly surprised-sort of responses.
And yes,everything that i forge is unconditionally guaranteed,%100 always been axiomatic.
(All that has been my only steady forge-income for a number of years now.It's to the point that one can look up "Jake's holdfasts" on the internet,and all sorts of indiscreet stuff appears... ).

But,with a dead moose(or two)in the freezer,other dead critturs,the River full of driftwood each spring,et c.,i'm in a fair position to strike against reality
It's those resources available to me,plus the fact that i'm a part of a village(that takes care of my needs to an embarassing degree),that allowes me to speak so flippantly about forcing my work upon the world on my terms.
Of course,it's all just talk.I've not many years of forging left to me anyway.And this too shall pass.
So,yet again,this is to aknowledge your folks' incredible achievements in the face of the "wolf".Deepest respect,Ian,Bob,Michael,et al.

[Dillon Sculpture]

But my hat is off to you Jake, you have the luxury of being in the position TO strike against reality! To have everything to gain, as simply or extravagantly as you want, as quite opposite I have everything to loose if I do not take the path some have bequeathed me in my so called success.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Michael,thank you most kindly for your sentiment,unfortunately,i can only wish that it were so...
My strike against reality has been ruthlessly broken already a while back:I'm a cripple,just about ready to start dragging my rear-end,like a ran-over dog.
(An old back surgery is coming undone,and even that was only thanks to an accidental and very rare legitimate job that i had at the time).

So that my vocation,surviving out on the river,and my avocation,the controlled(barely )hand-forging,are both winding down,and just about done.

Such is the price for some things in life,no regrets whatsoever.Actually,back in the day,my mid-40-ies would've been an extreme and rare old age around hereabouts.

So that my spoutings fall entirely flat.If you cannot afford medical help,you're toast,and you're out.
The rest is just me being a drama-queen.Though i do stand behind everything i say,it's only hypothetical rantings now ,and about all's i got left.

So i truly mean it when i express my profound admiration for those that make ends meet.

[jake pogrebinsky]

And,just because! ,i'd like to post my favorite poem of all times,by Dylan Thomas.
(I like it for many different reasons,but here/now i'm thinking of preservation of all that is classy in ironwork! )


DO NOT GO GENTLE INTO THAT GOOD NIGHT
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[chyancarrek]

Thanks for that Jake . . . Been a LONG time since I read that one in entirety.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

"...In the end the metal doesn`t know or care if it was heated in an induction forge or a coal forge...............I know beyond ANY doubt that the customer DOES know,and even WHAT they know!

Really?

[Dillon Sculpture]

Michael,thank you most kindly for your sentiment,unfortunately,i can only wish that it were so...
My strike against reality has been ruthlessly broken already a while back:I'm a cripple,just about ready to start dragging my rear-end,like a ran-over dog.
(An old back surgery is coming undone,and even that was only thanks to an accidental and very rare legitimate job that i had at the time).

So that my vocation,surviving out on the river,and my avocation,the controlled(barely )hand-forging,are both winding down,and just about done.

Such is the price for some things in life,no regrets whatsoever.Actually,back in the day,my mid-40-ies would've been an extreme and rare old age around hereabouts.

So that my spoutings fall entirely flat.If you cannot afford medical help,you're toast,and you're out.
The rest is just me being a drama-queen.Though i do stand behind everything i say,it's only hypothetical rantings now ,and about all's i got left.

So i truly mean it when i express my profound admiration for those that make ends meet.

Sorry to hear about your back Jake, I'm glad that your mind and spirt are in good order, they can be the strongest of all our body parts and the best way strike against reality in the end and I commend you on that!

[jake pogrebinsky]

Michael,thanks again.And,i AM actually working! (Just ran in while something is cooling out in the shop).


Grant,with all due respect...ABSOLUTELY!

At least that portion of the people that have TASTE in ironwork and other stuff.The rest can go shop for their objects elsewhere,i wouldn't grudge Sam Walton his share of the market,i'm not that mean! :P

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Jake: If anyone can tell if it was heated by induction or coal it just mean you haven't cleaned the tar crap off of it!:lol:

[jake pogrebinsky]

Oh,no,no sir,Grant,that's not my point at all-the WAY that iron was heated matters not at all!
What i meant was that as long as it was heated/worked/shaped CORRECTLY!The method itself,who cares?As long's them molecules are lively!

Your induction rigs are skoocum
as can be,BTW,i'd test-drive one in a sec!

Some classy old work-the Rose door at Chester cathedral,say,can be stamped for all i care!It'll still be classy!

(Can't resist adding that the way that look was COME BY was forging,so that's why i've been digging it ).

[ianinsa]

Jake,
"Ian,i'm not aware of any 3rd world ironwork for sale in US that is actually good,and dirt cheap.It could be the regional difference,or simply my ignorance.All that i've seen in the box-stores is a breeze to compete against in terms of quality.

By the way,if i may ask you to elaborate on the meaning of "horses for courses",i'm sorry,learned English too late in life...I do so love many British expressions,the "bespoke" ironwork sounds so cool,and others,iron-related and not."

I'm not aware of the markting strategies of the high end retailers in the USA however in you knew All the sources of product you might be quite surprised. I'm not talking the mass market products I mean the bespoke stuff. A very influential and very well thought of interior Us design company - Wilson and assosiates has used our products in a number of their projects, and we(all supliers) are expressly prohibited from branding our products on their projects. I believe that there is no free marketing and it makes it difficult for people to copy their work(this is common in high end work). Furthermore companies like Art De Mexico make a fortune manufacturing in Mexico and retailing in the US.

The term horses for courses means quite literally, on a racecourse you use a horse that runs well, on a steplechase course
you use a horse that jumps well and so on.

Ian

[jake pogrebinsky]

OK,thanks,Ian.That underscored the fact that i know nothing,and even less,about the architectural(interior?) iron market,different world for sure.

Alaska is srange,an odd mix of the 1st and the 3rd worlds.

On a recent trip to Fairbanks(the State's 2nd largest city,about 80.000 souls)i've seen something truly odd.Still don't know what to make of it:
A basic,simple fireplace tool kit.On the ugly side,or just "blah" sort of a look.
Some forging,joined by a few unground arc-welds.
Thickly spray-painted,of course.Priced at $200+.
But here's the weird part.Large shiny label says "Colonial Williamsburg" 2 or 3 times,in some moronic sales blurb.(Just in case,what i know about Col.W. is that it's a museum,historic park,an old townsite used in many respects.Somewhat of a holy site for the Colonial period smithing,as a bunch of research has been conducted there by some very talented smiths,tourist attraction,et c.But nothing of any commercial endeavorr of theirs,but again,i'm an ignoramus.But an odd concept when attached to fairly obvious "shite".).
So,i looked high and low for any mention of an actual manufacturer.Finally,i found it.The print could not been any smaller:Made in Poland.

What's up with all that,i wonder...

[Mainely,Bob]

Two words Jake,brace yourself,here they come;
Global Economy.
Run,while you still can!!!