Cold Weather work.......

[zampilot]

Winter is anywhere from 2 weeks to two months away, the snowy cold stuff. I would like to continue my heat and beat over the winter weather using a charcoal or propane forge, outside. I'm curious about the potential for damage to my anvil and post vise, they will be very cold temperature-wise. I realize back in the olden days when something needed to be done, it was "to Hades with the weather". I can line up the propane forge to heat the anvil somewhat.
Any experiences from those of you in Northern Climes that forge outdoors ? A trip to Mexico is not in the cards!

[archiphile]

Winter is anywhere from 2 weeks to two months away, the snowy cold stuff. I would like to continue my heat and beat over the winter weather using a charcoal or propane forge, outside. I'm curious about the potential for damage to my anvil and post vise, they will be very cold temperature-wise. I realize back in the olden days when something needed to be done, it was "to Hades with the weather". I can line up the propane forge to heat the anvil somewhat.
Any experiences from those of you in Northern Climes that forge outdoors ? A trip to Mexico is not in the cards!

Just heat a large piece of steel (3/4" thick and up) and place it on the anvil be for you start beating. As for the vise I am not sure how to treat that.

[pkrankow]

Until the temperature is below 0F breaking the anvil or vise is not likely. Below about 40F the cold anvil quenches your work before you get the second hammer blow in. Just get a piece of plate and heat the anvil some. Clamp a piece of plate in the vise if you are using that, but not until you are about ready to use it.

Some people use engine block heaters on the waist, but they are not moving the equipment every time.

I work in the driveway too. When the snow drifts around you it is fun.

Phil

[mike-hr]

In the winter, I spend my first cup of coffee heating scrap blocks in the forge, laying on the anvil face, clamp one in the vise, put one on the Power hammer die. I feel it's time well spent, a person can get more hammer time with a warm anvil up front. I have a propane reddi-blaster space heater, I've found it to be more effective to aim it just under the surface of the big welding table. When I turn the heater off, the table will still radiate for several hours. It's a big cast iron platten table, but the theory holds for any mass heated up, rather than just the air.

[Marksnagel]

Not owning a real anvil I do have one advantage. I am using an old discarded train coupler knuckle that has two holes that pass completely through. The first thing I heat in the coal forge on a cold/cool morning is a piece of 1" round stock. Placing this into the hole heats my "anvil" up nicely and every now and then I just heat up the bar again.
Every cloud has a silver lining. Well, almost, still wish I had an anvil.




Mark<><

[Pat Roy]

Except for one summer and fall I've always been able to work indoors. I wouldn't want to work outdoors in winter in Maine. It was a cold shop though until I fired up the kerosene heater. Yes a cold anvil does suck the heat out of your work quickly. Heating it and the leg vice as others describe is useful. The biggest problem I had was holding on to cold tools with my hands, even wearing gloves. At the end of the day the temp could reach a comfortable level as long as the wind wasn't blowing through that drafty place.

I have moved on to a new shop now, well insulated and with a propane heater to maintain a minimum temperature of at least 40F. This will be my first winter in the new shop. Picture attached.

[tlreif]

Man pat! That is one beutiful shop! I wish I had a place like that. I would love to see more pictures of it.

As for me in my shop. I heat with kerosene until the gas forge takes over and I also heat a plate to warm the anvil. I keep the garage door down with about a 2 inch crack and I have a small exhaust fan for ventilation.

[Marcus Hopfinger]

I was wondring the same thing myself..."how cold is to cold to do forge work"....I have an uninsulated, unheated garage but the temp does get sub-zero in there and I was wondering if pulling a piece out of the forge into the sub-zero air would cool the piece too quickly to get anything accomplished. I am hoping that in a couple years I can section the "shop" part off and insulate and heat it but that is some years away.

[Marksnagel]

Granted here in NC it doesn't get really cold until Dec/Jan (single didgets for bit) but my shop it under an oak tree. Hopefully this winter I can have a small shop.

Pat that is one sweet shop. Enjoy it.

Mark<><

[pkrankow]

I was wondring the same thing myself..."how cold is to cold to do forge work"....I have an uninsulated, unheated garage but the temp does get sub-zero in there and I was wondering if pulling a piece out of the forge into the sub-zero air would cool the piece too quickly to get anything accomplished. I am hoping that in a couple years I can section the "shop" part off and insulate and heat it but that is some years away.

Air is a good insulator, as long as it is still. Even in sub zero weather pulling the steel is not much different than on a hot day.

Now conduction to that anvil can cool metal faster than your slack tub can, with potentially disastrous results for your project, especially if it is a high carbon steel.

Phil

[ThomasPowers]

Capt'n Atli uses an old steam iron to warm his anvil, just turn it on high and place it on the face while first thing when you get in the shop.

Anvils do see to break more often in cold weather---I have a friend who broke an old family anvil. Steel does have a brittle zone when it's quite cold---we studied the liberty ship that broke in two in a calm harbour---at -55 degF in one of the MatSci classes I took. However there is always the possibility that the failure mode at warmer cold temps is actually the smith not having as much control due to be cold or bulky clothing and so doing the damage by mis-striking.

Any way, a warm anvil is nice to work on in cold weather! When I worked for the swordmaker we used to fight for who got to sit on the nice warm anvil between heats rather than standing on the cold concrete floor! (we warmed it up by hanging old large cans on the horn and heel and building small scrap wood fires in them.)

A piece of plywood on the ground can help your feet stay warmer too!

[Marcus Hopfinger]

Air is a good insulator, as long as it is still. Even in sub zero weather pulling the steel is not much different than on a hot day.

Thank you for clearing that up. As long as I pre-heat the anvil I should be good to get some work done yet this winter....as long as I can stand the cold.

[pkrankow]

Capt'n Atli uses an old steam iron to warm his anvil, just turn it on high and place it on the face while first thing when you get in the shop.

Anvils do see to break more often in cold weather---I have a friend who broke an old family anvil. Steel does have a brittle zone when it's quite cold---we studied the liberty ship that broke in two in a calm harbour---at -55 degF in one of the MatSci classes I took. However there is always the possibility that the failure mode at warmer cold temps is actually the smith not having as much control due to be cold or bulky clothing and so doing the damage by mis-striking.

Any way, a warm anvil is nice to work on in cold weather! When I worked for the swordmaker we used to fight for who got to sit on the nice warm anvil between heats rather than standing on the cold concrete floor! (we warmed it up by hanging old large cans on the horn and heel and building small scrap wood fires in them.)

A piece of plywood on the ground can help your feet stay warmer too!

Plywood is good, just make sure it won't slide under you.

I may have to try the steam iron myself.

If I am too cold in a long sleeve T-shirt or sweatshirt, it's time to go in. I work on the driveway, so no shelter for me.

Phil

[Sam Falzone]

Winter is anywhere from 2 weeks to two months away, the snowy cold stuff. I would like to continue my heat and beat over the winter weather using a charcoal or propane forge, outside. I'm curious about the potential for damage to my anvil and post vise, they will be very cold temperature-wise. I realize back in the olden days when something needed to be done, it was "to Hades with the weather". I can line up the propane forge to heat the anvil somewhat.
Any experiences from those of you in Northern Climes that forge outdoors ? A trip to Mexico is not in the cards!

A friend of mine who is a professional artist blacksmith came up with an ingenious way to keep his anvils warm all winter. He lives up near Owen Sound here in Ontario which is around 2 hours north of where I live - it can get pretty cold up here in the winter (sometimes minus 25 to minus 30 degrees celcius). His solution, so that he doesn't use up fuel to heat up heating-plates but still lets the anvil soak up heat all night long is to build a plywood "anvil cozy" for his anvils. The plywood box is big enough that he can line it with rigid styrofoam (the stuff with the shiney reflective layer on top) and slip it over the whole anvil. But the real ingenious part is that he attaches inside the top of the anvil cozy a light socket wired to an extension cord, with a 60 - 100 W lightbulb screwed in (so the box also has enough headroom to allow the light socket and buld to fit above the face of the anvil). Everynight he slips the anvil cozy over his anvil and plugs it in. By the time he starts work in the morning, the anvil had been soaking up the radiant heat from the lightbulb for over 8 hours. He says that on really cold mornings his anvil steams when he takes the cozy off - probably hot enough to keep your coffee warm

I love that idea.

[petere76]

Pat,

Thats a fine looking smithy you built. Great doors, good sized windows and its very distinctive and classy.

As a suggestion for an anvil heater, buy electric strip heaters for motors, Low wattage, little fire danger and if you have any kind of insulation box around the anvil, it will stay very warm on the coldest days. Its gets well below zero in my neighborhood in Jan and Feb so some sort of auxilary heat is required to make both the equipment and the people happy.

Peter

[Marcus Hopfinger]

Any thoughts on a magnetic oil pan heater stuck to the anvil? If I had a nice solid 200# chunk of steel for an anvil I am guessing it would retain its heat for some time but mine would cool off rather quickly I am afraid and I would have to spend as much time heating the anvil as I would the work. Even with an more massive anvil one of these heaters might help keep it toasty all day.

[zampilot]

I was wondring the same thing myself..."how cold is to cold to do forge work"....I have an uninsulated, unheated garage but the temp does get sub-zero in there and I was wondering if pulling a piece out of the forge into the sub-zero air would cool the piece too quickly to get anything accomplished. I am hoping that in a couple years I can section the "shop" part off and insulate and heat it but that is some years away.

Hey Marcus,
We are in the same boat temp wise. From my forge to anvil will be about 2 feet distance so I'm hoping it won't chill too much. I can move it in one motion and beat the metal but if it requires 3 or 4 times heating I'll wait til spring...

[Greebe]

Any thoughts on a magnetic oil pan heater stuck to the anvil? If I had a nice solid 200# chunk of steel for an anvil I am guessing it would retain its heat for some time but mine would cool off rather quickly I am afraid and I would have to spend as much time heating the anvil as I would the work. Even with an more massive anvil one of these heaters might help keep it toasty all day.

My forge set up right now is in an enclosed, but unheated and uninsulated breeze way. I was thinking about the best way to preheat the anvil as well. I just got rid of a magnetic oil pan heater this year.

I might go to the thrift store and see if I can find an old iron to use. Put it on cotton setting and let it heat her up.

My only though about heating the anvil up is if you could hurt the heat treatment of the face.

Greebe

[Marcus Hopfinger]

My only though about heating the anvil up is if you could hurt the heat treatment of the face.

Greebe

I think that is where the magnetic oil pan heater could be a good thing. Attach it to the body of the anvil that isn't hardened and only the conducted heat would reach the face plate...I am sure that if that heater got hot enough you could conduct enough heat to be a concern but if it is on the body you should be able to better regulate the heat--compared to a heat source directly on the face--so it doesn't get that hot. Then again a steam iron or magnetic oil pan heater may not get hot enough to be a concern.

[Pat Roy]

Todd, Mark & Peter, thanks for the comments. According to the local rules(and the significant other), the exterior of outbuildings has to match the main house.

In spite of having a scaled drawing of the floor plan and all the tools, I am still in the process of moving things around to where it will all work well. These pictures are not quite current but generally represent what's there.




It's a better place to work than I had before, lots of space(for now) and easy to keep warm.

[Sam Falzone]

I think that is where the magnetic oil pan heater could be a good thing. Attach it to the body of the anvil that isn't hardened and only the conducted heat would reach the face plate...I am sure that if that heater got hot enough you could conduct enough heat to be a concern but if it is on the body you should be able to better regulate the heat--compared to a heat source directly on the face--so it doesn't get that hot. Then again a steam iron or magnetic oil pan heater may not get hot enough to be a concern.

As for the magnetic heaters or steam iron, or even the light bulb, I don't think the heat gets high enough to affect the heat treatment on an anvil. It would be very much like leaving an anvil ouside in the hot sun - really warm, maybe even uncomfortably warm, but not hot enough to be causing physical changes in the crystaline structure of the steel.

The hot plates could be a bit of a concern, especially if they were large, thick plates and heated to extremely high temperatures (like a high yellow). A plate large enough to cover the whole face of an anvil heated to that temperature and left to soak in could start to affect the heat treatment (I think) - but I don't imagine anyone with any blacksmithing experience at all going to that extreme.

Does this sound right or am I way off base?

[ThomasPowers]

Irons: note that the ignition point of cotton is about the zone you would start to be concerned with your steel---so if your clothes are not going up in flames you are probably fine---even without the consideration that you have a massive *COLD* heat sink stealing away heat about as fast as you can pump it in!

If building fires under the horn and heel didn't mess with the temper an iron won't either and on anyanvil I've tried that on it necver got the anvil *hot* just warm.

[kevan]

Lovely looking shop,any chance of a peek inside?

[lordcaradoc]

Except for one summer and fall I've always been able to work indoors. I wouldn't want to work outdoors in winter in Maine. It was a cold shop though until I fired up the kerosene heater. Yes a cold anvil does suck the heat out of your work quickly. Heating it and the leg vice as others describe is useful. The biggest problem I had was holding on to cold tools with my hands, even wearing gloves. At the end of the day the temp could reach a comfortable level as long as the wind wasn't blowing through that drafty place.

I have moved on to a new shop now, well insulated and with a propane heater to maintain a minimum temperature of at least 40F. This will be my first winter in the new shop. Picture attached.

Pat, that is beautiful. It would hold all my shop wants like Blacksmith, Woodwork, Leather-work and be enough to store my utility trailer too.

A friend of mine who is a professional artist blacksmith came up with an ingenious way to keep his anvils warm all winter. He lives up near Owen Sound here in Ontario which is around 2 hours north of where I live - it can get pretty cold up here in the winter (sometimes minus 25 to minus 30 degrees celcius). His solution, so that he doesn't use up fuel to heat up heating-plates but still lets the anvil soak up heat all night long is to build a plywood "anvil cozy" for his anvils. The plywood box is big enough that he can line it with rigid styrofoam (the stuff with the shiney reflective layer on top) and slip it over the whole anvil. But the real ingenious part is that he attaches inside the top of the anvil cozy a light socket wired to an extension cord, with a 60 - 100 W lightbulb screwed in (so the box also has enough headroom to allow the light socket and buld to fit above the face of the anvil). Everynight he slips the anvil cozy over his anvil and plugs it in. By the time he starts work in the morning, the anvil had been soaking up the radiant heat from the lightbulb for over 8 hours. He says that on really cold mornings his anvil steams when he takes the cozy off - probably hot enough to keep your coffee warm

I love that idea.

Sam, that wouldn't be David Robertson would it? Very nice guy, I haven't met face to face, but he is always willing to answer my questions when he gets a few minutes away from the shop.

I love that idea of using a light bulb to heat the space around an anvil all night. Another suggestion I have heard that could easily be adapted is using a light bulb (100w) to keep your slack tub from icing over. The same concept of an insulated cover with the light bulb as the heat source could be used.

My forge set up right now is in an enclosed, but unheated and uninsulated breeze way. I was thinking about the best way to preheat the anvil as well. I just got rid of a magnetic oil pan heater this year.

I might go to the thrift store and see if I can find an old iron to use. Put it on cotton setting and let it heat her up.

My only though about heating the anvil up is if you could hurt the heat treatment of the face.

Greebe

The Iron is a great idea and they only top out at 100°C/212°F, the boiling point of water, so there shouldn't be any damage to the temper of the anvil face.

I used to live in NE Ohio and my only shop space was on a little patio pad outside. I was not interested in January in working outside as the temps would dip down below zero and the wind was brutal. Now I am in the Pacific NW and as long as I have cover from the rain, I should be able to work all year round.

Best regards,
Tim

[ThomasPowers]

Why pay to keep water from freezing? What's this love of slack tubs? I seldom use water when forging and a 5 gallon bucket carried out to the forge when I go is more than sufficient. I can drop a hot piece of steel in it if it wants to freeze up before I'm done for the day. Really most of my "cooling" is done by tossing stuff out into the dirt or placing it on a slab of soapstone on a workbench. We're not working low carbon wrought iron or even 1018 anymore---water can get you in trouble with A-36 and in big trouble with blade work!