Making Tool Steel out of Mild Steel?

[Robert Simmons]

As I understand it, tool steel is basically high carbon steel with chromium and some other elements in it to inhibit corrosion. So I was wondering if it would be possible to take high carbon steel from perhaps a car coil spring and add chromium content to it. What I was thinking is that you could measure out the elements you want by weight and then pack it into a container in the manner you do to add carbon to steel and then bring it up yellow to austentite and hold it there for a while. I was hoping that the diffusion would absorb the chromium into the steel.

Do you guys think that is possible and safe (toxic substances wise)?

P.S. Here is a distributor of chromium powder.

http://micmet.com/chromium.htm

[Wesley Chambers]

While my basis of knowledge is nothing more than years of discovery and science channel, any time I see steel/metallurgy programs they talk about how sensitive the mix is when creating these complex metals, just a few pounds or ounces can ruin a multi ton smelt! It would be my guess that buying the steel you want would be cheaper easier and safer, not only in working with but the stability of the end product. I am in no way saying it cannot be done but I dont think I could spend that much time playing with it! heheh good luck though!

[pkrankow]

Modern fancy tool steels are alloyed with many things, but "tool steel" is simply steel suitable to make a tool from. In a blacksmith's setting 1040 through 1080 are tool steel of suitable nature for many tools. Increasing CARBON in steel is relatively easy without melting the iron, but other alloy elements do not move very well through the un-melted steel.

A gentleman named Thomas Nizolek did some research while in school about this relating to pattern welded damascus.

http://www.google.co...r99oHQ9CwXmWm5w

http://asmcommunity....000621e010aRCRD

If you want to know more about increasing carbon content search "blister steel" and you will get much information.

Phil

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

As I understand the process, the carbon first converts to carbon dioxide before it is absorbed. Also a great deal of carbon is used in relation to how much is absorbed. Chromium does not form gaseous oxides at a temperature under the melting point of steel ~ if ever! Only way to get the two to join is melting.

[Steve Shimanek]

A car spring is likely to have chromium in it already, and without resmelting the alloys are unlikely to combine. Thinking about it some more, could a case hardening process improve the carbon content of a typical 5160/9260 type steel.....that could be an interesting experiment. Got to walk before we run, though.

[Timothy Miller]

As I understand the process, the carbon first converts to carbon dioxide before it is absorbed. Also a great deal of carbon is used in relation to how much is absorbed. Chromium does not form gaseous oxides at a temperature under the melting point of steel ~ if ever! Only way to get the two to join is melting.

I think its actually carbon monoxide not dioxide that is doing the transfer.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I think its actually carbon monoxide not dioxide that is doing the transfer.

Think you're right.

Steve: Yeah, 8620 is a popular "carburizing" alloy. It's a chrome-nickle alloy that is particularly receptive. I used to have tons of 8630 carburized.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

With the ready supply of modern tool steels that we have available it wouldn't be worth the time to mess with it IMHO.

I would have to say that to do what you want, you are going to be doing some foundry work. We use to make our own alloys at the dental metals foundry that I worked at. All carefully measured out, and melted together. Some elements had to be added at certain stages / temps in order for the melt to come out right. You just don't toss it all in at once, and melt it.

[craig]

I've read that members on this forum have made steel from wrought iron by packing strips or small bits in a metal container with powdered charcoal...the carbon from the charcoal is absorbed into the iron and I think there are even formulas that tell you how long it will take for the carbon to migrate through a certain thickness of iron at given temperatures.

Here is a good discussion

[Robert Simmons]

With the ready supply of modern tool steels that we have available it wouldn't be worth the time to mess with it IMHO.

I would have to say that to do what you want, you are going to be doing some foundry work. We use to make our own alloys at the dental metals foundry that I worked at. All carefully measured out, and melted together. Some elements had to be added at certain stages / temps in order for the melt to come out right. You just don't toss it all in at once, and melt it.

That is my problem. I dont really have a ready supply. I wish I did but most of the vendors in my area that carry it are asking stupid high prices for it. Even trying to locate a coil spring from a Semi truck, I got a stupid response of $50 for a 6" high broken spring and that is just high carbon, not tool steel. I imagine it is easier on the east coast.

I have been trying to think if there are scrap tools on the market that i could reforge but most tools I see have a lot of toxic zinc in the steel and also I havent been able to find anything with the kind of mass I need to make hardy tools or even a decent split chisel.

If people have suggestions on what I could look for to get some good tool steel without paying a fortune, I am all ears.

[Robert Simmons]

I've read that members on this forum have made steel from wrought iron by packing strips or small bits in a metal container with powdered charcoal...the carbon from the charcoal is absorbed into the iron and I think there are even formulas that tell you how long it will take for the carbon to migrate through a certain thickness of iron at given temperatures.

Here is a good discussion

Adding carbon is easy. Any coal fire will add carbon if you hold the steel near welding temps and there are ways to add carbon at lower heat. Its adding the alloying elements that increase the hardness and defeat corrosion, such as chromium, that i wanted to do.

[pkrankow]

What do you want to do?

Automobile and light truck springs are good choices and typically 1/2 inch to 5/8 inch. Network with some mechanics and repair shops, many of them PAY to have this type of thing hauled off.

Leaf springs from light trucks and utility trailers are usually 1/4 or 3/8 thick, but can be 1/2 inch thick. They are usually 2-3 inches wide. Again call up the mechanics in your area and talk to them. Ask them about drive axles and half shafts as well.

Show up with gifts, AT LEAST a 12 pack of soda (pack a diet and a regular just in case) or a box of dough nuts. Quality beer is often welcome, and a 6 pack will usually take care of it. Sort the metal, organize the area and leave it neater than you found it in. DO NOT bring children on any of these excursions. Wear proper attire to get dirty, have gloves and work boots.

Consider a Craigslist ad as well.

Phil

edit:
You said hardy tools and chisels. Axles or half shafts will work for hardy tools and automotive size coil and leaf for chisels.

Have you checked online sellers like speedymetals? Minimum shipping hurts though, ordering more and 4 ft lengths (or less) help limit shipping charges.
Phil

[thingmaker3]

Computer glitch. Please disregard post

[Bob S]

I have been trying to think if there are scrap tools on the market that i could reforge........ I havent been able to find anything with the kind of mass I need to make hardy tools or even a decent split chisel.

If people have suggestions on what I could look for to get some good tool steel without paying a fortune, I am all ears.

You can get used up moil points (jackhammer points) just about anywhere. Check out your local tool rental store if they rent jackhammers or talk to road/cement contractors in your area.

Most moil points are made of 1045 or similar and are great steel to make hardy tools or just about any blacksmith tool.

Bob

[thingmaker3]

Carbon diffuses realatively quickly through iron because carbon atoms are timy compared to iron atoms. Ditto for boron.

Not so for chromium or vanadium or other "big" atoms.

Note well: adding chromium or other elements WILL NOT increase hardness. Hardenability, yes, but not hardness. Maximum attainable hardness is is related to carbon content. Again, its those tiny atoms in amongst the bigger ones which do our trick for us.

Robert, what is it you want to make? Why the requirement for rust-resistance?

[pkrankow]

Robert, what is it you want to make? Why the requirement for rust-resistance?

Good point on the "why rust resistant?" Adding all these rust resistant materials has an effect of making the heat treat process more complex too.

Phil

[Dragons lair]

You can get used up moil points (jackhammer points) just about anywhere. Check out your local tool rental store if they rent jackhammers or talk to road/cement contractors in your area.

Most moil points are made of 1045 or similar and are great steel to make hardy tools or just about any blacksmith tool.

Bob

How about just an old fashioned crowbar? see them all the time at yard sales or flea markets.
Ken.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Maybe this will help you locate some good steel to work with. This is how I accumulated well over a ton of forging stock.

I am a car guy so I was around junk yards, auto swap meets, and buying old cars to part out. Before any car went to the wrecker it was stripped of axles, torsion bars, springs, steering linkages, sway bars, pedals, headliner bows, steering shafts, and anything else forging size. Most of these cars were bought for peanuts, or free.

I am a scrounge at heart, so I am always looking in dumpsters, and garbage cans. 1st day at my first real job, and I find an Albrecht keyless chuck with an R8 arbor in the trash. It was locked up, but I grabbed it anyways. It sat around until I finally found a cutaway picture in a tool catalog ( pre internet)showing the joint. Popped it apart, and all that it needed was a roll pin replaced. Moral of the story-----keep your eyes open at all times, and listen to people.

A local Eagle Scout project was dismantling some old bleachers at a High School. I brought home a pile of large angle iron for some volunteer labor.

I brought home a stack of cam blanks for cam type screw machines from the company I now work for. They were going to toss them since they no longer have any cam machines. They get really hard when heat treated. During the move from Las Vegas to La Verkin UT I collected tons of material that they were tossing; steel, stainless, channel, angle, sheet, bar stock,aluminum, etc...

I hauled scrap metal off for friends, and people that they had told about me. It is amazing what some people toss.

Check with your local scrap yard. We had one in Napa CA that we used to buy material from.


Cruise Craigslist's free section, I see cars, trailers, and exercise equipment being given away fairly often. Talk to auto repair shops, autobody shops, farmers, etc.. Material is out there IF you look for it, even in Colorado.

Dang near every pound of material I have was free for the taking.

[craig]

Adding carbon is easy. Any coal fire will add carbon if you hold the steel near welding temps and there are ways to add carbon at lower heat. Its adding the alloying elements that increase the hardness and defeat corrosion, such as chromium, that i wanted to do.

Ok, so you want high carbon chromium steel ?
You could try to make some type of electric arc furnace to do it on a small scale...I have no idea how, and I'm sure it would be much more expensive than buying 5160...but then again doing it yourself isn't always about being cheap and easy
Good luck !!

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Ok, so you want high carbon chromium steel ?
You could try to make some type of electric arc furnace to do it on a small scale...I have no idea how, and I'm sure it would be much more expensive than buying 5160...but then again doing it yourself isn't always about being cheap and easy
Good luck !!

Yep! Plus anything that you've never done is easy.

[MattBower]

First, no, you cannot effectively "pack chromium-ize" steel. To add alloying elements other than carbon in meaningful quantities you need to get the steel liquid, and once you do that there's a lot of metallurgy to understand in order to get a satisfactory product.

Second, the purpose of adding chromium, molybdenum, vanadium, tungsten, etc., to tool steels is to make them deeper hardening, to increase wear resistance and red hardness, etc. It generally has nothing to do with corrosion resistance.

Third, you don't need tool steels for what you're trying to do. Plain carbon steels in the 1040-1050 range will do the job reasonably well, as will low alloy stuff like 5160 and 4140. A hot work steel like H13 would be nice for some of the thinner tools, but it's not necessary. (As an aside, although 10xx series steels are suitable for making many tools, I don't generally refer to them as tool steels. I reserve that term for steels that have been given AISI-SAE tool steel designations: W-x, O-x, S-x, H-x, etc. These are alloys that have been engineered to have properties that make them suitable for specific types of tools.)

I know of smiths who make high carbon crucible steel and wootz (which is a specific type of the latter) because they're history/archaeology nuts and really love to experiment with the old-fashioned steels. I'm kinda interested in doing it myself. But what I have learned from talking to these folks is that aside from the steep learning curve and the unpredictable nature of the end product, the costs in labor and dollars involved in successfully melting and alloying your own steel -- and then working it into usable forms -- will make those "stupid high" prices at your local steel vendors look positively cheap.

If you absolutely can't come up with what you need locally (see all the good advice above), you can order it from places like Speedy Metals, Online Metals, McMaster-Carr, etc. It won't be dirt cheap, but it'll be a lot cheaper than what you propose to do.

[ThomasPowers]

You can diffuse stuff into your steel but diffusion rates for things like Ni and Cr are SLOW---think of *YEARS* at high temps to get amounts/depths that carbon will do in minutes to hours.

Now how expensive is it to heat your piece in an expensive alloy container to high temps for several years? Why I bet you could do it for a bit less than $10000 a pound! (How much is that "too expensive" steel you were referring to?) And of course the grain on the ferrous stuff would then be totally trashed!

I buy old cold chisels at the fleamarket for 50 cents to a dollar apiece and reforge them into anvil tooling. Also old rock drill shafting is generally a good tough alloy, (the old stuff is generally a higher carbon content than the new stuff in my experience as ther old stuff---say 100+ years is a straight carbon steel and the new suff will be alloy)

For a hardy how about an old pickaxe head hot cut and forged to fit the hardy. Or an old axe that was broken at the eye---making it cheap!, cut it off and forge to fit the hardy.

Have you asked around machine shops about scrap? I've picked up some O1 from an old machinist for $1 a pound and a pound goes a long way in the forge.

Now if you want to diffuse carbon into your metal may I commend unto your attention: "The Cementation of Iron and Steel" *way* more than you will likely *EVER* want to know including tons of experiments showing things like you can get carbon diffusion without CO...

Or for those other historical weirdos out there: "Steelmaking before Bessemer, Vol 1 Blister steel; Vol 2 Crucible Steel"


One last thing---vehicle springs are generally not high carbon, they are medium carbon like 5160 or 9260.

[wedwards]

That is my problem. I dont really have a ready supply. I wish I did but most of the vendors in my area that carry it are asking stupid high prices for it. Even trying to locate a coil spring from a Semi truck,

.....

If people have suggestions on what I could look for to get some good tool steel without paying a fortune, I am all ears.

Take a drive up to Cheyenne on I-25 after the next snow storm. You'll find all of the truck parts you'll ever need all over the road. :lol:

[kpotter]

I cant see putting a whole lot of time and effort into an unknown piece of metal, To take the time to go find this piece of mystery metal then to cut it and forge it into a useful object only to have it fail because you used a rusty piece of junk mystery steel is crazy. Steel is not all that expensive the gas to light a forge will cost more than a pound or two of it. I wont buy mystery metal and spend time machining it I get friends who come over and want to cut rusty crap on my band saw I give them good steel it is cheaper than ruining my bandsaw blade. I can understand not having any money but scrap is 30 cents a pound and new is 50 cents and I do not have to deal with scrape yard workers I know were I am buying mine.

[ThomasPowers]

K.P.; I assume that you don't have a 100 mile drive each way to get to a steel dealer? Drives the cost up a bit!

For projects where it counts I use new material, for a lot of projects re-cycling is an easy and cheap way to go and has a nice resonance as smiths have been recycling iron/steel for about 3000 years now.