Gloves ? Glasses? Do people actually skip them?

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

One size don't fit all. Even "welding" is a broad term. I have welded bare hand, often on a vertical. Sometimes a glob will roll down across the back of your hand and leave a track. Had worse burns from slag going IN my glove or landing between two fingers of the glove. Usually the amount of radiant heat is the determining factor in what gloves you use there. Gloves are not a critical issue like eyewear.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

There just might be a good reason the majority of experienced smiths here don't share you opinion. It ain't because we're stupid, ignorant or careless either. Or have no thought for our own safety. The contrary opinions are well thought out decisions based on experience.

[WmHorus]

I admit I am still learning. I'm not saying do this or that, I am just stating what works for me.

[Frank Turley]

I came to smithing through horseshoeing more than 35 years ago. We used coal forges for shoeing and smithing. I have had beaucoups blacksmith students over the years at Turley Forge School. I don't think I've ever seen a horseshoer wear gloves except maybe thin deerskin in the wintertime. In shoeing, you're handling clinch cutter, pulloff pincers, clinching tongs, hoof knife, rasp, nails, driving hammer, and that's all BEFORE you go to the forge for your tongs, rounding hammer, forepunches, pritchels, etc. You'd go nuts trying to handle all those tools with gloves on.

When I began to do ironwork after I let the horses go, I continued NOT to wear gloves. I do not miss them. I have students who INSIST on wearing them and they get used to picking up hot iron with them on. Then, when they don't have them on, they pick up hot iron...force of habit. It doesn't take them very long to inspect that hot iron, if you get my drift. Sometimes, the iron is so hot that the glove gets hot, and you've never seen a person move so fast as trying to shake and pull that hot glove off! I laugh.

Then, there is the handling of different tools. You may want to pick up a scriber and use it. Gloves are in the way. Sometimes, a guy may remove his gloves to handle a small tool. Guess what? He forgets where he put the dang Gloves. Oh yes. It happens. Then you waste time going on a glove search.

Some people get blisters easier than others. If that happens, I usually put a gauze and adhesive tape on, the tape wrapped around the entire hand. That way, they are still sensitive to the tools and the work.

There are exceptions. If I'm doing heavy work at the power hammer, I wear face shield, gloves, and apron. I look like a guy heading for outer space. But for smaller work at the anvil, no gloves.

As for comparing blacksmithing to fusion welding, there are two similarities: the metal is ferrous and the metal is hot. Everything else is totally different.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[pkrankow]

I will say one thing, any glove that you wear should fit you tightly. If you have a new pair do the following before using them. Heat up an amount of water to not boiling but warm. Soak the gloves in the water for half an hour. Then pull them out, put them on and leave them on til they dry. At the end, they should fit you like ... well ... like a glove.

I have several pair of gloves like that. I use them for rope work and high vibration tools. I have 2 pair of finger-tip less from when I used to race sailboats. I have another pair that I have for using with the chainsaw. These gloves have short tight cuffs, and would be very difficult to catch on anything (but it can happen). They take time to put on and take off, and offer very little protection from heat, but good protection from vibration and abrasion.

While forging or working in the shop safety glasses are a must (mine are prescription), apron is nice. I often wear a left hand welding gauntlet while forging, but usually do without.

Phil

[ThomasPowers]

Hey Robert; forges don't put out much UV at all! They put out IR---what causes glassblowers cataracts! So do your fancy glasses do any good against IR or are you harming yourself with them while patting yourself on the back?

UV is primarily an arc welding (and sunlight) issue.

I have been touched with red-yellow hot steel a number of times. It generally leaves a "cut" rather than a burn unless it's on the inner hand then usually it's just a light brand to the callouses . Worst burns I have had were when wearing gloves. Wearing a glove on your hammer hand also increases the likelihood of carpal tunnel and other RSI as you need to exert more pressure to maintain hammer control.

So far it seems as your "safety gear" may very well be damaging you!

And yes I wear safety glasses whenever I am not asleep---had my regular prescription done up as safety glasses! And when in the forge I will top them with a face shield at times and have a *HEAVY* leather apron to cover the tender bits; but although some of my jeans have scorch marks none of them have ever burnt through.

29 years at the forge and counting.

I fear the buffer and wirewheel more than I do hot steel!

[Mainely,Bob]

One of the things that will drive me right up the wall and make me bring out my drill sgt voice is when I`m focused on a task or working on a machine and someone walks up behind me and taps me to get my attention.Where do these people come from and why do they have no training or common sense?
Whenever I come into someone else`s shop or am working with someone in mine I walk to where the person can see me and wait for them to finish what they are doing and acknowledge my presence.
I know where the "line of fire" of a machine or operation is and am careful to stay out of it.
I also insist that people turn off those dang cell phones while working in my shop.Nothing is more distracting than having one of those go off while you`re trying to focus on something important.

Grant`s point about synthetic material is an important one.Some of those materials can be like napalm if hit with a torch or a good blast of dragon`s breath.100% cotton is the way to go.If you think long sleeves are too hot then soak them down and they will both cool you and the sparks/scale landing on them.
Working in nylon/synthetic shoes is just as bad as a nylon shirt.I`ve seen people lose a foot due to burns that a leather boot would have shrugged off.
I prefer slip on(engineer) boots so I can kick them off if something hot burns thru my pants leg and lands in my boot.Absolutely no cuffs on the pants either.
No loose clothing or gloves and long sleeve shirts get rolled up securely and out of the way around rotating machinery and things like wire wheels.Cup brushes on grinders mean wearing leather sleeves and an apron for me as well as a face shield and safety glasses.

It`s that little voice in your head that makes all the difference between keeping all your parts and losing a few.
I`d rather look like a wuss and set a good example for a newbie than act macho and end up burned,bleeding or worse.

Anyone who has been drinking is allowed to watch,from a distance,as long as they remain quiet.Alcohol does not mix with my gear or my presence AT ALL!
You want to drink,go to the bar.You want to work,leave the beer in the cooler till the work and the machines stop for the day.No exceptions where I live!

[forgemaster]

I as a professional working smith for 28 years and an employer of 3 more blacksmiths have to say every thing Grant has said is 100% true, different continent, same trade, same conditions.
Full PPE does not a safer worker Jimmy make.
We usually forge up to 150kg jobs wearing singlets, long pants, steel caps, yes we will wear gloves, (cause you often have to pick up hot tools punches etc) sometimes glasses, sometimes not, sometimes a hat sometimes not.
The difference is we have the experience to know when to wear the full metal battle jacket and when not too. The most dangerous tool in my workshop is by my thinking the forklift. More people are injured, maimed killed etc the whole world over each day by forklifts than by any other means, yet they are classed as "like a little dodgem car" by most people.
I have had fairly bad burns on my hands caused by hot scale, etc falling into the back of my gloves, I have had my face and eyes badly burned by objects hitting my forehead then falling down inside my glasses and staying there. Doesnt mean I wont wear these things again, I'm just saying that its attitude and an alertness to the risks that will prevent most accidents from happening, not PPE.

Phil

[Frosty]

Semantics now. A proper fear IS respect. Unnatural fear just leads you to another profession.

Oh yeah, Darryl Nelson's wife lost a finger to the drill press because she WAS wearing gloves, never would have happened without gloves.

You're right Grant, the base meaning of respect is fear a good dictionary will lay it out in so many words. In practice it's more a degree than kind difference. At some point fear can cause a person to freeze up or run when standing your ground and taking control is the safest route.

For instance, ever have a high pressure line break close by? Run and it's likely to whip you to fuzz from behind. Reach out and grab it and hit the valve and the worst you're likely to suffer is a bruise or two. Of course this assumes you know to NOT grab the very end.

Winter driving in Alaska provides an even better example. In virtually every loss of control wreck I've seen and I've seen lots having worked for DOT as long as I did. The last thing you see, just before the vehicle goes hopelessly out of control are the brake lights.

In my experience people are the most dangerous item in ANY shop. Turning your back on someone you don't know, who's engaging in a potentially dangerous process shows a truly dangerous lack of situational awareness. Blaming a close call on the person engaging in the process, further shows trait that refuses to acknowledge the real danger.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Yep, brakes are your best friend most of the time, but on ice they can be your worst enemy because they cancel out all your other controls. I love watching the TV videos of icy car wrecks. Wheels locked up and people trying to steer. Often if they would just get off the brake or pump. Guess anti-lock breaks are taking care of that one.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Phil: Boy you got that right about forklifts. I used to get brand new Toyota forklifts and I'd torch off the two-speed shift lever! On the rare occasion they need to go down the road you could slip a pipe over the stub that was left.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Speaking of safety, saw this the other day:

Larry LaPrise, the man who wrote ‘The Hokie Pokey’ died peacefully last week at the age of 83. The most traumatic part for his family was getting him into the coffin. They put his left leg in, they pulled his left leg out, they put his left leg in and.......

[chyancarrek]

I'm in the Frosty Grant camp on this one - you can armour yourself up all you want and just be asking to be eatin' alive by the gear you think you're protected from. The one thing I NEVER compromise on is eye protection - I came equipped with only two Mark I peepers and they aren't the impact resistant model.

The outright best PPE you can invest in is the ol' thinker - the best warranty you can get for it is experience and being willing to listen to those who know what they're doing while you're learning.

I've only been smithing and doing foundry work for 12 years (10 professionally) but I've been around whirling knives as a woodworker for a lot longer and there's no substitute for using common sense, being situationally aware and keeping your head on a swivel anytime you're occupying the same workspace as someone else.

I hate using tongs (Sorry Grant) - I prefer to hang on to that metal with my hand for as long as humanly possible to keep my feel for the work - that habit has yielded a pair of mitts that can hold on to some metal that'd make a lot of folks cry and when I do have to go to a glove, it's tight fitting and as thin a leather as I can find - I never put anything on the hammer hand for all the reasons stated above . I never hesitate to work in short sleeves or cutoffs and regularly wear just good ol' sneakers in the shop when I'm forging - when I'm pouring hot metal it's a different story entirely because the circumstances are different. Do what's appropriate to the work - Stupid can work it's way up both sides of the scale so take a critical look at what you're doing and how you're going about it.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

chyancarrek: That would be the Grant Frosty camp actually!

And I completely agree with you on tongs.

[Sask Mark]

Speaking of safety, saw this the other day:

Larry LaPrise, the man who wrote ‘The Hokie Pokey’ died peacefully last week at the age of 83. The most traumatic part for his family was getting him into the coffin. They put his left leg in, they pulled his left leg out, they put his left leg in and.......

Grant, shouldn't this have been reserved for the 'This is Vegas' thread?

[chyancarrek]

Understood, but Frosty Grant has more of a brand name ring to it - I thought maybe you guys could get together on a little line of iron eyewear . . .

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Sorry, no "Vegas" here!

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Oow, Frosty Grant, sounds like sun-glasses!

[Frosty]

chyancarrek: That would be the Grant Frosty camp actually!

And I completely agree with you on tongs.

Are you designating this a comedy thread then Grant? I admit you're #1 on that account.

I do as much as possible before I use tongs too, better grip and better feel, just like the old books say in fact. I have leather sneakers and was wearing them at the forge a little while ago. About the short sleaves, scale at black heat sticks to dry skin like a steak in a hot dry frying pan but put a sheen of sweat on your hide and you'll notice the hot bite but the scale gets blown off by the steam.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Frosty]

Oow, Frosty Grant, sounds like sun-glasses!

Oooh, it does it does, it sounds like really cool sun glasses! Safety sun glasses!

Look cool, be cool, be safe, wear Frosty Grants!

I can feel the RICH coming on!

Frosty the Lucky.

[pjh66]

I do agree that people need to think about safety for them selves.
I believe in being "very" aware of your suroundings & what is happening in them.
PPEs are a must in or chosen work/hobby.
I do metal work full time & blacksmith for a hobby. I build items for earthmoving equipment.
Aprons can be usful BUT I would not recommenduseing a apron when on a lathe. It can easaliy get caught in the lead screws.
Gloves are the same problem as they can get caught in machinery.
People need to learn what can happen & use items as needed.
1 of the leasted used items I see is hearing protection (me included).
I have seen people talking about UV protection glasses but if you check with high temps as in forge welding it is infarred that does the eye damage not the UV & most safety glasses that I know of don't protect against infared.
I avoid glove as they can get caugt & the other problem which I have seen happen is hot metal going down in them which you cant get out quickly.
There is not enough time to post all of the imformation here about safety in our field but the most important thing that I can think of is to use your "brain".
Think about what might happen.
Make sure of your suroundings.
Be prepared if something does go wrong.

[youngdylan]

.
In my experience people are the most dangerous item in ANY shop. Turning your back on someone you don't know, who's engaging in a potentially dangerous process shows a truly dangerous lack of situational awareness. Blaming a close call on the person engaging in the process, further shows trait that refuses to acknowledge the real danger.

Frosty, I couldn't agree more about people, except with a lot of workshop layouts you automatically have to turn your back on other people when working and moving around an anvil or powerhammer, sometimes there's no way round it. Someone pulling steel from a forge often have their back to others. Surely the person about to start swinging hot steel has a big responsibilty to check that there's no one in their path or the hammer is clear? A person working on the hammer can't keep stopping and looking round for others about to rush into them .... some people focus soley on not loosing heat when they've pulled the steel from the forge and charge off to ...

Other people holding hot steel which is out of my control is one more reason I wear an apron.

I guess "other people" also make ear defenders a minus as well as plus. I do try to use them as much as possible but people can become a lot less aware of their surroundings wearing them. One of the purpose of our ear lobes is so that the brain can process the reflections in and around them to help us become aware of our surroundings ... ear defenders can mask these reflections to a high degree. It's why the "acoustic image" wearing headphones is centred in the head unlike the large wide soundstage that quality loudspeakers can create.

An example of how ear lobes work is determining front/back and above/below for sounds that come from somewhere on our "centre axis". Given that our ear canals face pretty much sideways, without lobes we wouldn't be able to locate a sound from our centre axis. Sounds above/below back/front would all sound the same. With "off axis" sounds, our brains can use relative loudness and "phase" to determinine location. Reflection in and around the lobe/canal helps our brain determine phase. Our ears/brain combination can be a remarkable sensitive and precision instrument .

As someone whose early "professional life" was connected with acoustics I do wear ear defenders ....but through gritted teeth and as a lesser of two evils :)

[Mainely,Bob]

There seem to be two main types of people in the shop.There`s the "look out for me" type as evidenced by the fine fellow that nearly seared the Captain`s skull and then there`s the "I need to be careful of others" type,who I MUCH prefer to work with.
The real problem is quickly(before anyone gets hurt) sorting out what type your present co-worker is.
You can always reheat a piece of steel,it usually takes a relatively small amount of time.Same goes for putting a first or second clamp on something to keep something from launching across the shop.

In my younger days the "bull in a china shop" approach would get you warned once then knocked to the floor for the second offense.I wasn`t taking any chances after my first experience being put in the hospital by a co-worker.
Now I and my friends just leave the area till the thrashing is over.If it`s my shop,I switch off the power to the machine and then explain that is not how things are done here.
Too many friends missing parts due to other people`s stupidity=high vigilance and zero tolerance.I aggressively defend both my own well being and the safety of those around me.
Some I have worked with called it "Hive mentality".Seemed like common sense to me.

[Sam Thompson]

Don't you just love it when a self-confessed 'newbie' tries to tell you how to do your job?

[Agita]

I wear a pair of yellow ballistics grade glasses form watching a piece of yellow slag hit a fellow in the eye. They are made for shooting but correct me if I am wrong, I think they will stop a piece of slag. ( theyr spose to take a 22 at point blank, but I wouldn't test it )
They fit like sports sunglasses. ALSO being yellow I can see colors run while the metals still in the fire. Take the glasses off and you can't see jack for the heat.

I also hate gloves, I don't have the dexterity when they are on. But... I do always wear a t-shirt, soooo.. I wear Long welding gloves
when I am forge welding. Not a month ago I hit a large billet and spattered my left arm with flux leaving around 30 or so small white blisters. The size of a grain of sand.

I'm thinking of wearing sandals from now on, 2 months ago I had a welding hot piece of metal the size of a dime melt thru my pants the top my boots, tongue ,strings, socks and 1/2" of my skin on the top of my boot. Took at least 5 seconds to get the boot off and dig that crap out of my skin. Still YELLOW hot. LOL. Still can't feel all of the top of my foot.