Gloves ? Glasses? Do people actually skip them?

[youngdylan]

I.I'm thinking of wearing sandals from now on, 2 months ago I had a welding hot piece of metal the size of a dime melt thru my pants the top my boots, tongue ,strings, socks and 1/2" of my skin on the top of my boot. Took at least 5 seconds to get the boot off and dig that xxxx out of my skin. Still YELLOW hot. LOL. Still can't feel all of the top of my foot.

I guess sandals are ok for lightish work but they dont do much when you drop something heavy on your pinkies .... we really do need them to walk properly

[Julius]

I never wear gloves.
I only wear eye protection while hammering at home.

No gloves because I like to feel what the metal is doing as I am hammering it. The reason I only wear eye protection at home is this. I do a number of smithing demonstrations a year at a historic site. This is not a renfaire or anything like that where historical acuracy is not an issue. I do demonstrations at an 1850's Ca. fort. I dress in period atire and make implements for use at the fort. Mostly hinges and various pieces of hardware. smiths of the 1850's were not wearing eye protection as far as I know. And in my quest for historical acuracy I emulate them as much as possible.

[ThomasPowers]

Julius; so you plan to die in your 50's and are knocking out your teeth on a regular basis to get an 1850's accurate look?

I do historical re-enactment myself and safety glasses are just a given. I'm already at the age when most of my great grand fathers started dying off and I hope to make it to when the great grandmothers did!

Everybody remember the "australian" steel toed flip flops? Not hard to add a steel cover to your sandals though not as impressive as PTrees duck billed safety shoes!

[pkrankow]

Everybody remember the "australian" steel toed flip flops? Not hard to add a steel cover to your sandals though not as impressive as PTrees duck billed safety shoes!

Spats? Welding spats are typically heavy leather and cost less than $20/pair. There are metal lined ones as well.

Phil

[Agita]

Now those Welding spats look ok. I might invest in a pair.

[Robert Simmons]

Well there have been some good points made in the thread and I rad every post. The points about lathes and rill presses and gloves are definitely worth the thought. At least peopel are talking aobut safety. It seems people have varying levels of comfort and that is cool, that is why we live in a free country. My intent wasnt to anger people but to ask and to probe and to question the very essence of what we do.

Don't you just love it when a self-confessed 'newbie' tries to tell you how to do your job?

Do you value the empirical discussion or is the potential blow to the ego too severe to even countenance a debate?

I love the other points made on the thread about rotating machinery and gloves or the hazzards of non gauntlet gloves or even the "hey its my personal choice and I take the risk." All of those are great comments. Yours, Sam Thompson, just came across as arrogant, spiteful, condescending and elitist.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Then ask why they work that way instead of saying

"I have to say that either most of the people posting there aren't serious smiths or many serious smiths are outright crazy".

Or:

If you "old hands" decide not to, well you are adults of course and can make your own decisions even if I view them as foolish. No offence.

People like to say "no offense" as if it negates the offense. Just like "not to change the subject" when they want to change the subject. Or "not to interrupt" when the want to interrupt.

I thought Sam's comment was right on the money. Tell me again WHO is being arrogant!

[Sam Thompson]

And your initial post was patronising and ill-informed. It also covers ground that has been well raked over in the past.

[Robert Simmons]

You know somehow I still think handling potnetially burning hot metal with potentially extremely sharp edges is better done with a good pair of gloves but I am not allowed an opinion because I am new here. I think it is, yes, crazy, to be tossing around hot metal bare handed. I am not allowed that opinion either because I am new here. I grant that great points have been made about gloves around rotary machinery. I am not credited with that either.

Sorry, I have trouble genuflecting to the "vetrans" when 7 years of welding an fabricating, and all the classes I have taken in metal work go to the opposite. But again I am not allowed my opinion because I am new here. Sure I havent smithed nearly as much but I have been around metal shops most of my life. But again, my opinion doesnt matter.

I really suck at discussions that involve people saying "I cant justify an argument but you suck because I have been doing this longer." Am I perfect? Oh god no!! Am I a complete asshole? I dont think so but of course it is possible. Do I know it all? Definitely not. Can I be swayed by rational argument? Absolutely! Do I do well with "veterans" that lack empirical arguments? No, must be a character flaw of mine - never put too much creedence in authority or position.

Clearly I am a poor fit for the forum.

Good luck to you all. Even those flaming me for expressing an opinion. I wish you the best.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Calling people crazy and foolish goes beyond a simple discourse. Same for calling people arrogant, spiteful, condescending and elitist.

You point to your experience in your chosen field but give no respect to others experience in theirs. Don't demand respect when you give none.

I had my first welding certification at 18 and 3 more before I was 21. I've built dams, bridges and pipelines. I dress a whole lot different now than I did then. Welders often have few tools for "handling" hot metal, blacksmiths have many.

"Do I do well with "veterans" that lack empirical arguments"? By definition "veterans" have empirical knowledge. "I cant justify an argument but you suck because I have been doing this longer". The "arguments" given were backed by sound justifications and empirical knowledge gained by experience.

[MattBower]

Yeah, Robert, seriously: between this thread and the other, I'm becoming convinced that you don't know what "empirical" means. It means, "based on observation or experience." And that's what you're getting: insights and opinions based on experience. So don't complain that you're not getting empirical arguments.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Too bad when a thread degenerates like this. Many of us had an inkling it could happen beginning with original post. Can we learn from this and avoid it in the future? Maybe, maybe not. But let's turn our attention to that and maybe salvage something from this experience. Not sure even now that I can recognize where we should have bailed out. But I'm going to make a mental note and try not to let things spiral out of control like this in the future. Any ideas guys? Operation was successful, but the patient is dead!

[Alec.S]

yah....... i think we should just cool it and let this thread die!

it is a shame because we coulda' learnt some from others about saftey!


alec ....................................

[MattBower]

@Grant,

When I disagree with someone, but I get the sense that saying so straight-up might be unproductive, one approach I sometimes try is the Socratic method. Rather than telling the other guy why I'm right and he's wrong, I ask questions to try to lead him to my conclusion. Many people respond better to tactful questions than to in-your-face assertions. E.g., I might've asked Robert, "well, Robert, here are the various reasons that people said they typically prefer not to wear gloves while forging. What is it about these explanations that you consider foolish or unpersuasive?" It's not as emotionally satisfying as, "who the hell are you to call us foolish, newb?" but sometimes it's far more effective and it helps keep the flames down. (Note: I'm not saying that you approached him that way.)

The problem is that on a big forum like this there's always apt to be one guy who doesn't want to play that game, and if the OP is easily offended well, then, you're off to the races.


@Alec,

Actually, I thought there was a lot of good discussion in this thread before it hit the fan.

[bajajoaquin]

Can I ask a slightly different question?

When are the opinions of experienced veterans valid based on rational thought, and when are they superstition perpetuated because we dislike change?

I agree with the opinions on gloves and blacksmithing, don't get me wrong. And I choose to wear natural-fiber long sleeves, pants, and shoes (eye protection is a no-brainer). But the arguments sound an awful lot like the ones made against helmets on motorcycles: "yeah, they sound like a good idea, but think of all the accidents caused by not being able to (see, hear, or other perceived flaw)..." "If I don't wear a helmet, I'm just that much more careful...."

It's not intended to ramp back up the ire. I'd just like to know the level of introspection that goes into the safety decisions.

[Winston]

Ya'll are as sensitive as a bunch of old women! Worse than kids!

I know that gloves sound good, but once you have tried to quickly remove a too-hot glove, you will think twice before using them. At least bare handed you can let it go quick. Just learn to think of all metal as hot.

I use ear protection more than anyone I know. I also hear better than anyone I know my age. Yet I do not always use them when smithing, it just depends.

I have worked with metal for years and after getting metal in my eye one time became a firm believer in eye protection. Yet, I did not wear eye protection when I started forging. I guess when I started forging I did not see anyone wearing eye protection I was around. Soon after I had a piece fly off and burn my eye lid good. If my eye would have been open I would be Popeye right now. Now I always wear eye protection no matter the inconvenience.

[Mainely,Bob]

How about starting a new post like "keeping all your parts" or "Why I`m not dead,yet",or the ever popular "Hold my beer and watch this...".

I think where we jumped the track was the "apples and oranges" thing again.
Why don`t we move on to something really safe.How many here home school their kids?
I`m ducking and running now! :unsure:

[MattBower]

When are the opinions of experienced veterans valid based on rational thought, and when are they superstition perpetuated because we dislike change?

You're going to have to figure that out for yourself, and it's a matter of experience (with people, and with the subject matter) and judgment. I think it's always fair to say, even to a gritty old veteran, "Really? Why's that?" and to expect to get a response that makes some kind of sense. Of course some people won't give you one (even if they have it), and some people will take offense at that kind of question. So it goes.

As for the rest of it, well, look, anecdotes are an incredily poor -- near worthless -- basis for most kinds of decision making. But sometimes they're the best we've got. The thing about motorcycle helmets is that they've been studied pretty extensively, and the results of all those studies are a lot more pesuasive than speculation and anecdotes. But I don't know that we have anything like those studies when it comes to things like gloves in blacksmithing, so what are we left with? Anecdotes, experience and reason.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

So, here I am with my finger poised over the "post" button wondering "should I or shouldn't I"? Maybe if I put in enough smileys........

Here we go again! HELMETS! First, I always wore my helmet even when it wasn't mandated. Some things sound reasonable, certainly helmets do. But the statistics don't support them. The statistic usually cited is motorcycle head injuries go down. BUT neck injuries go UP. Also the accident rate goes up. Yeah, people speculate on why, poorer field of vision, obstructed hearing, feeling less vulnerable, what ever. Makes some people feel good to mandate them. Maybe we should mandate helmets for cutting down birch trees!

Same with hand held phones. States mandate hands free phones. Doesn't change the rate of accidents from distracted driving a bit. It wasn't that their hands were occupied, it's because their minds were! Same thing, makes people feel like they're doing something to enact these laws. These things should always and only be backed by good science. :blink:

[MattBower]

lol!

Fair enough. I have no dog in the motorcycle fight, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to learn that helmet laws are really all about the ninnies controlling the rest of us. Happens all the time. I work at a place that actively fights that kind of xxxx every day, all over the country.

OTOH, it's very plausible to me that there could be a net gain to society from reducing head injuries, even if it means an increase in neck injuries and overall accident rate. But like I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I never got into motorcycles when I was younger, and I figure at 39 and with four kids (number five on the way) and a wife depending on me, the potential downside of starting now is waaaaay bigger than the upside.

[youngdylan]

How about starting a new post like "keeping all your parts" or "Why I`m not dead,yet",or the ever popular "Hold my beer and watch this...".

I think where we jumped the track was the "apples and oranges" thing again.
Why don`t we move on to something really safe.How many here home school their kids?
I`m ducking and running now!

There should really be a section on the home pages for Safety stuff. I never really noticed there wasn't one but now, it stands out like a sore thumb. Most books on smithing these days seem to have a section near the front.

Me? I always like hearing about others near ....or other ....misses, not in a ghoulish way but the more I get shocked into safe practicesthe happier I am. It's kinda relevant to me cos I'm self taught about just about everything metalwise and rarely go to forge-ins. I'm only too aware I will have taught myself many bad habits. I never really want to feel "safe" cos it's that complacency that will get me.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

None of my arguments were based on "because I've been doing this for 35 years" but rather "this is what I've learned and know to be true after 35 years". There is a huge difference.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

On second thought, maybe we shouldn't have a safety forum.

Doggone it, in the end he just wanted to be one o' the guys like we all do. Come on back and ease in a little. We'll all forget this in a few.

[Frosty]

Too bad when a thread degenerates like this. Many of us had an inkling it could happen beginning with original post. Can we learn from this and avoid it in the future? Maybe, maybe not. But let's turn our attention to that and maybe salvage something from this experience. Not sure even now that I can recognize where we should have bailed out. But I'm going to make a mental note and try not to let things spiral out of control like this in the future. Any ideas guys? Operation was successful, but the patient is dead!

How's this for a start, I just deleted the post I was going to send?

There've been a few good suggestions. Being more tactful is a good one but I'm afraid most blacksmiths I know would rather know straight up front if you think they're wrong, making a mistake or most especially doing something less safe than another method.

I think, (my opinion please feel free to delete now) threads like this degenerate when there's emotional investment in a position. Emotional investment leads to things like "Traditional smithing ONLY" positions even if the smith is going broke. Another that's tearing the guts out of the country right now is the "Fix the blame, forget the problem" attitude in DC.

A really good question was asked about when do we stick to tradition or adopt new methods. This is a decision that has been discussed maybe weekly since I got my first interned connection and subscribed to ABANA's "theforge list." A lot of folk believe blacksmithing is ABOUT traditional methods. My thought is the true tradition of the smith is, Easier, faster, cheaper, more profitable, maintain quality. The 21st century image of the traditional blacksmith is sitting in an airconditioned booth, sipping a Jolt Cola or Late and watching the moniter to make sure the CNC machinery is on track. Emperical evidence? A gentleman, multi generation blacksmith name of Hobart invented the oxy acet torch and another of similar lineage name of Miller, invented the arc welder. The lathe? Sorry, the lathe's inventor's name is lost in prehistory. Power hammer? same, too ancient an invention to remember who done it.

The traditional blacksmith has always been the local inventor, always looking for an easier, faster, better way to do a brutally hard and dangerous job of work. That's a tradition I follow. Youbetcha!

How about gloves? I'm pretty sure we've covered all the good and bad issues associated with wearing gloves so here's a new, non-traditional glove that addresses one of my greatest concerns, mainly heat shrinking a leather glove to my hand and cooking it before I can get it off. What's the fix? Kevlar gloves. Sure, they're synthetic so there's the possibility of deep frying your hand if contacted by somethng over about 750f. On the GOOD side, kevlar gloves do NOT shrink on your hand so you can get it off with a quick flip of the wrist.(practice really helps here) If that doesn't work a fast dip in the slack tub will solve the problem nearly instantly. Speaking from experience, when a leather glove has heat shrunk to your hand it takes several seconds to cool below meat cooking temp in the slack tub. Not saying you shouldn't stick a burning appendage in the slack tube mind.

Personal opinion again, for what it's worth. The new techniques, tools and equipment should get their trial and be judged on performance, be it speed, capacity, safety, economy, etc.

Like safety gear, tradition should have it's place till it gets in the way. For example I was approached about 15 years ago or so by a person who wanted something forged "traditionally." What time period? I asked and he looked at me like I was an idiot and said 6,000 BC. ?! You want bronze? I asked. He left and I managed to not cry. Even if he'd been willing to consider a period where iron WAS used and worked I don't think there was a chance in Pacoima he would've paid my shop rate and employees wages and bennies for it. From my experience, folk who want you to use 2,000 year old methods want to pay Costco prices.

Another suggestion was we're being too sensitive. Who's we? The folk who answered questions, presented experiences and reasoning to back them and have so far maintained at least minimally polite composures? Or the folk who initiated the debate (There you go, I'm being polite) with name calling if opinion differed?

Mincing politely around issues just doesn't work for blacksmithing while a BIG hammer does.

Okay, I've spent WAY more time on this than I should, I have more important things to do than try convincing unwilling folk to at least consider experienced opinion and advice. heck, I have a new puppy and he's a darned agreeable little guy! See attached pic if you're interested, his name is Falki which is Icelandic for Falcon and he's an Icelandic Sheepdog.

Frosty the lucky

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Matt: there might also be a net gain to society to have deaths over serious injury too! Just rather make the choice myself. B)