Gloves ? Glasses? Do people actually skip them?

[Robert Simmons]

Ok I have been trying to get tips on getting good round scrolls, mine come out a bit more irregular than I like. So I just watched a bunch of blacksmith videos on the internet and I have to say that either most of the people posting there aren't serious smiths or many serious smiths are outright crazy.

Out of 10 videos I watched, 7 smiths had no gloves on, 9 had no eye protection and 3 were smithing in short sleeved shirts. That seems, well, nuts. I am new to smithing though I have been welding and fabricating for some time but I would think a lot of the safety should be the same. In fact I have been known to rebuke my 14 year old for not wearing gloves and eye protection in the shop. Its just way too easy to get seriously injured.

Do you have any idea what a piece of yellow metal comming off your workpiece would do to your eye? It would boil the fluid until the eye exploded. Dont worry about the UV comming off the piece or forge, that will only take away your vision a little at a time. One hot splinter will take out an eye permanently and irreparably in seconds.

When it comes to not wearing gloves, pop quiz: how long of a contact with a yellow hot piece would it take to make a third degree burn? Answer is less than a second. Yet some like to try out their scroll fit freehand? Even a piece that is black (not heated enough to see) can give you a second degree burn in seconds.

Same goes for short sleeved shirts. If you cant handle working in the heat then perhaps metal work is not the hobby for you. This reminds me of silly people that ride motorcycles in flip flops and swim suits except as a metal worker I can gurantee with 100% that you WILL get something dropped on you, shot at you out of a machine such as a cutoff wheel or drill bit comming apart.

Gear up folks. I maybe a newbie to smithing but this seems as obvious as walking. And if you post a vid or pic online without your gear, think of example you are setting for the youngster who says "I want to try that."

That or find a good recipie for boiled eyeball, charred flesh and severed finger.

Anyway sorry for the soap box but I was incredulous.

[WmHorus]

Well I can understand why you are concerned, I wear glasses of some kind while hammering, however gloves I sometimes use sometimes I dont, when I do I am usually forge welding just cause hot flux sucks, I usually have a long sleeved shirt as well. You would probably go nuts watching me work wearing loafers and no socks on. Ya i get hot scale on my feet and it can be annoying but.... Most guys want to be comfortable, and alot of the guys making videos have been working for a long time and know what the steel is going to do. If they lose an eye its on them, of they get burned this includes me, we get burned we work with Hot steel, if yer afraid of fire and getting burned this is not the hobby for you. Some of us even like to drink while we work, oh no a buzzed smith with hot steel. Once again thanks for the concern but of we get hurt its our problem.

[Mainely,Bob]

You have every right to be incredulous!
I see big name(on TV) fabricators TIG welding aluminum in short sleeve shirts and can`t help but wonder how long before they get a real good burn and then skin cancer.
I still have 10 fingers and 10 toes and vision in both eyes.That`s what constant wear of PPE, vigilance and focus gets you.You have only so many parts with few available replacements.Your choice whether you keep them all for when you reach retirement.
Either way it only takes a second.

Every time a newbie sees an old hand getting away with less than safe practices they think they can do it too.Setting the example should mean more than showing them where and how hard to hit with a hammer.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I agree with eye protection and little else. I often work in a T-shirt and rarely wear gloves. Shirts offer little or no protection from anything. Most modern shirts are an least partly synthetic and any contact with hot steel will melt them onto your skin. If you're going to wear a shirt, make sure it's 100% cotton. You'll need armour to protect you from a cut-off wheel or drill coming apart, not a shirt. In 35 years I've not see a "yellow piece of metal" come off my workpiece.

Why on earth would I touch a white hot piece of steel? Gloves are as much a safety minus as a plus and you'll never master hammer control with a glove on your hammer hand. The worst case I've seen is folks fumbling around with leather welding gloves on. The most I ever wear is 3-pair-for-a-dollar thin cotton gloves, but never on my hammer hand. These are choices, not safety concerns.

Arc, TIG an MIG welding require their own set of safety equipment. Totally different, like a welding helmet for one.

[youngdylan]

I'm afraid of getting burned ......VERY afraid ...... then again I do this full time and earn a living from it. Might be alright for you hobbyists but I simply can't afford weeks off work and drowning in overheads for the sake of being macho and not afraid.

Drinking while forging ..... guess I've heard it all now. Just about the only accident I've had in 30 years of riding motorbikes I had when I stopped after a long hard race with a mate over Hardnose pass in the Lakes. We stopped at pub and I had a pint, switched off dawdled and pootled on the way back .... zoned out, went wide on a bend ..... It's that loss of focus that's the killer and there's nothing better then alcohol for causing that.

That said gloves and rotating machinery don't mix ... I found out the hard way.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I actually did have a piece of metal come off of a top tool one time and bury itself in my arm, shirt didn't slow it down much.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I'm afraid of getting burned ......VERY afraid ...... then again I do this full time and earn a living from it. Might be alright for you hobbyists but I simply can't afford weeks off work and drowning in overheads for the sake of being macho and not afraid.

Drinking while forging ..... guess I've heard it all now. Just about the only accident I've had in 30 years of riding motorbikes I had when I stopped after a long hard race with a mate over Hardnose pass in the Lakes. We stopped at pub and I had a pint, switched off dawdled and pootled on the way back .... zoned out, went wide on a bend ..... It's that loss of focus that's the killer and there's nothing better then alcohol for causing that.

That said gloves and rotating machinery don't mix ... I found out the hard way.

And nothing breeds vigilance like fear, and nothing breeds complacency like an unfounded belief you are "protected". I've said it many times, "Safety is an attitude, not a device"!

[youngdylan]

I'm afraid of getting burned ......VERY afraid ...... then again I do this full time and earn a living from it. Might be alright for you hobbyists but I simply can't afford weeks off work and drowning in overheads for the sake of being macho and not afraid.

I actively cultivate my fear ...either at work or on the road ... it's that fear that I hopes makes me a safer worker. I really DONT want to loose my fear, I like my fear, it's my friend. In a perverse way I also like those "little" accidents that don't cause any real harm ...(but could have done)....they always make me re-evaluate my working practice.

[thecelticforge]

Much the same here as Grant, I usually tale my shirt off and just use an apron to help protect hot bits from going down my pants. I save my shirts that way. Gloves in my opinion are an accident waiting to happen. I wear eye protection when welding, grinding, cutting...

[youngdylan]

And nothing breeds vigilance like fear, and nothing breeds complacency like an unfounded belief you are "protected". I've said it many times, "Safety is an attitude, not a device"!

....and fear dispells the complancy and it's complancy that ....

[youngdylan]

Much the same here as Grant, I usually tale my shirt off and just use an apron to help protect hot bits from going down my pants. I save my shirts that way. Gloves in my opinion are an accident waiting to happen. I wear eye protection when welding, grinding, cutting...

Yeah a leather apron is a must for me, just the slightest "brush" of orange steel leaves a burn that takes weeks to heal .... certain wouldn't want hot steel to brush against my "Crown Jewels", I also wear the apron when working machinery such as lathes, polishers etc, keeps dangling clothes away from the moving stuff.

I also wear a full face visor just about all the time when actively working. I sure look a plonker, maybe even a wimp, but I really don't care

[Alec.S]

I personally think that vigilance with this sort of thing is key........... But, for us hobbyists who do this for fun and enjoyment........ if we are scared of a burning ourselves and the like; thus causing us to get too hot and sweaty in thick boiler suits with safety goggles under a face shield with a welding gauntlet on both hands............ ARE WE GOING TO ENJOY IT SOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH? NO

Now............ I am not saying that ppe is a bad thing in any way....... i am just saying... WE ALL HAVE A BRAIN....... so we jolly well might use it once in a while ie. placing possible hot metal somewhere safe, always wearing safety spectacles (ALWAYS it is a must in the work place)
personally.... i have a THIN leather glove on my left hand that i can quickly shrug off... also, safety goggles. http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=138320 ....... these were the ones i used, untill today when i melted them ............ ( i stopped work immediately........ this was because the only eye protection i had did not fit me well...... causing a safety hazard!)
i also usually wear a tuff pair of trousers and a t-shirt.....

hot sparks burning you are inevitable...... as with small burns from metal...... this, as smiths is something we deal with every time we light up!........so....... be comfortable in what you wear, BUT be responsible for your self !

sorry if NONE of that made sense!

alec :D

[tzonoqua]

I think it boils down to informed choices.

I have weighed up the risks in my workshop and the most dangerous tool I own is my bench grinder/wirewheel. Wearing gloves while operating this tool would be foolish.
I always wear glasses or goggles, sometimes a full face sheild, eye protection goes without question. I wear gloves often for forging, but not always, usually not on my hammering hand, depending upon what I'm doing. I wear T-shirts a lot, and even sleeveless tops sometimes, but often I'll wear longsleeve tops. But I do wear a leather apron. Yes, I've been burned, but it's a calculated risk that I'm willing to take. And following "good practice in the workplace' goes a long way to preventing accidents as well.

The level of PPE you wear often depends on the task at hand, your personal preferences, and I don't think there is one size fits all in this situation, bar eye protection of some sort.
:rolleyes:

[Frosty]

Yellow hot steel isn't going to cause 3rd degree burns nor stick to you. It'll cause 4th degree, self cauterizing, short term pain burns as the little steam explosion will blow it off you're hide almost instantly. However, having it trapped against your skin by open shoes or deep frying you by synthetic clothing are in an entirely different realm of pain and injury.

Your eye's ARE a whole different NO EXCUSES story!

Also, leather gloves CAN shrink from heat exposure trapping your hands cooking you so not wearing them can have it's arguments safety wise as well. Personally I don't like getting dragon's breath nor sticky painful black hot scale on my bare skin so I wear leather on my left hand. However I've developed the situational awareness necessary to ply this craft as safely as any inherently dangerous craft can be plied.

I quote my Father to students on this, "You can't be afraid of it but you MUST respect it. IT being the machinery, tools and trade hazards.

Fear will get you hurt while respect for the painfull things will go a LONG ways toward keeping you safe.

Of course those're just MY and Dad's opinions, we could be wrong.

Frosty the Lucky.

[youngdylan]

Other people in the workshop are what scare me nearly as much as the "stuff"

I had a real lucky escape a few years back. I was at a meeting, had just finished on the power hammer, bent down to look at the dies. The next plonker (no I.... I really do mean w*****r) to use the hammer wasn't looking at the hammer, he was facing away looking a the forge, pulled his work out (without looking over at the hammer) All in one motion he pulled it out, lifted it in the air, swung round to the hammer and brought it back down again ..... just as I bent up from looking at the dies. I was millimetres away from being smacked on the head with a yellow hot bar of steel .....I'm glad I nearly had that accident because it sure makes me aware when I'm moving hot steel with others nearby.

Much as I do like safety gear, even I wouldn't say you should wear a hard hat in a workshop:) but you sure as **** have to be aware of other people.

[JNewman]

I always wear glasses, steel toed shoes or boots, hearing protection, and if I am doing a lot of grinding a respirator. Gloves are something I wear sometimes but not on my hammer hand I don't need to get carpal tunnel syndrome from having to grip the hammer handle too tightly. I also avoid wearing them while using my disk sanders, drills or mills. I would much rather get the odd cut or burn than lose a hand or arm (which could be fatal). Leather gloves can also be much more dangerous than no glove while forging, grabbing a hot piece of steel can cause the leather to shrink around your hand, the hot leather can then give you a much worse burn than had you simply dropped the hot work after touching it.

I usually forge in a short sleeved shirt and often in shorts. Unless I am forge welding there are not sparks flying around. I occasionally get scale burns but I have had scale burn through a shirt sleeve so the lack of long sleeves allows me to get rid of the scale quickly. I do wear long sleeves if welding, or working heavy stock or sheet where there is a lot of radiant heat. But for most of the work I do I don't see what a long sleeve is going to protect me from.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Thank Forsty! I was going to mention that really hot steel does little damage, but many hobbyists haven't developed thick skin from working bare handed all day. I had occasion to brush very hot steel and I just get a totally painless searing of the outer layer of skin. Ya get kinda used to the "small" burns anyway. Burned myself on the wrist the other day and didn't notice it till I was in the shower that night - "Ow, what's this"? I wear gloves when grinding cause I don't like the sparks, but they offer no protection from a hungry 36 grit belt!

[WmHorus]

Dylan,

Ya I can understand hearing about that incident and being wary of people in your space. Situational Awareness is something you have to have when working around others in close proximity. Some folks just dont have it, so those that do have to be twice as aware. I am careful as hell when I am working, but we all have near misses with the metal its just the nature of the beast, its how we handle it and the aftermath that shows if we learned anything from it.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Semantics now. A proper fear IS respect. Unnatural fear just leads you to another profession.

Oh yeah, Darryl Nelson's wife lost a finger to the drill press because she WAS wearing gloves, never would have happened without gloves.

[Robert Simmons]

Well it looks like I am in the minority and it is surprising to say the least. Now dont get me wrong, I am not suggesting we mandate anything by law. God forbid the stupid idiots in washington have another reason to take away our freedom.

I personally wear eye protection that blocks 99% of UV but is color neutral clear and wraps around. When Welding or forging I rarely wear more than my tig welding gloves. My stick gloves (thick as hell) are only for really problem jobs. My TIG gloves are standard miller thin gloves but offer an astonishing amount of heat protection and definitely wont shrink from heat contact. I usually wear a fire resistant long sleeve cotton shirt, steel toed boots and jeans. Heck I am playing with hot metal so im not going to be cool anyway. I have gotten used to wearing all of that and it has saved vital parts of anatomy more than once. I am going to get an apron soon.

These are habits I developed while welding and I PERSONALLY would reccomend anyone new to Welding, fabricating or smithing to do the same. If you "old hands" decide not to, well you are adults of course and can make your own decisions even if I view them as foolish. No offence.

I will say one thing, any glove that you wear should fit you tightly. If you have a new pair do the following before using them. Heat up an amount of water to not boiling but warm. Soak the gloves in the water for half an hour. Then pull them out, put them on and leave them on til they dry. At the end, they should fit you like ... well ... like a glove.

[youngdylan]

Thank Forsty! I was going to mention that really hot steel does little damage, but many hobbyists haven't developed thick skin from working bare handed all day. I had occasion to brush very hot steel and I just get a totally painless searing of the outer layer of skin. Ya get kinda used to the "small" burns anyway. Burned myself on the wrist the other day and didn't notice it till I was in the shower that night - "Ow, what's this"? I wear gloves when grinding cause I don't like the sparks, but they offer no protection from a hungry 36 grit belt!

Perhaps it's just me but I've got a real fear of being burned on my "pride and joy" ("little" David) .... a burn there might be "little damage" but it sure would be an inconvenience;) cotton trousers offer no protection against a brush with v. hot steel , a leather apron does. I kinda feel naked without an apron. Like a lot of people I wear a glove on the work hand and occasionally on the hammer hand .... usually when working on big pieces of steel where the radiant heat is just too much.

Are the smilies working, they don't seem to display or is just my computer

[JNewman]

I will say one thing, any glove that you wear should fit you tightly. If you have a new pair do the following before using them. Heat up an amount of water to not boiling but warm. Soak the gloves in the water for half an hour. Then pull them out, put them on and leave them on til they dry. At the end, they should fit you like ... well ... like a glove.

I would strongly disagree with this for forging. You should be able to get rid of gloves quickly when forging. If you accidentally pick up something too hot or you hold your hand to close to hot steel while holding a punch or chisel, your tight tig glove WILL shrink and burn you.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Well, you may think us "old hands" are just stuck in our ways, but what we do and why we do them come from EXPERIENCE. In your experience welding, you've learned to protect yourself from radiant energy, sparks and slag. Your experience does not especially trump our experience.

In heave forge work we NEVER wear tight fitting gloves, we buy oversize "hot mill" cotton gloves and they come off with a flick of the wrist. Welding, fabricating and forging may be related, but what applies to one doesn't always apply to the other, they're related, they're not the same, don't lump them together. In heavy welding in the field I would never wear tight gloves either. They're often wet and if you grab something hot you need to get them off fast.

[youngdylan]

.Oh yeah, Darryl Nelson's wife lost a finger to the drill press because she WAS wearing gloves, never would have happened without gloves.

Yeah, nearly happended to me on the drill. Some of the cuff was dropping down and wrapped around the bit, I got one **** of friction burn but I really kinda think I was lucky. Until then I thought I was safer with the gloves. It was one of those "nearly but not quite" accidents that can be useful if you learn from them. Another "useful" one was on the band saw cutting a small piece of round with an evil burr on the end. I was holding it by my bare fingers, (I'd learn't my lesson about the gloves from the drill) ..... as was all to foreseable with hindsight it spun and REALLY BADLY cut up the thumb and finger on my best hand. Hey ho, another lesson learnt the hard way ... vice grips all the way now.

I kinda think it's good hearing about other peoples accidents or near misses because they always make me THINK about my own working practice and I never really want to stop ...

[John B]

I think this topic started off with highlighting one of the biggest problems when you are trying to learn off the internet.

If you are starting to learn this ancient and noblest of crafts, It seems to be assumed that everyone who posts there are either experts or more knowledgable than yourself, and sometimes your common sense goes out the window.

Personally I find it quite amusing that someone starting in the craft is advocating what in his opinion must be used regardless for why it should be used.

I applaud the use of PPE, but only when it is useful and practicable, otherwise we will all be wandering around in life support system suits with auto darkening light shield visors and a crash barrier surrounding the wearer

Use the safety gear appropriate to the situation, and proper working practices.


If you are going to learn this craft, then take a class or join a group, go along to someone who does know what they are about, and ask and see what they are doing, in other words go to someone with a professional attitude, and if you feel you have to do something different, ask their opinion of why they are not doing what you suggest. Then use commonsense after receiving their answer to decide if their comments are valid or not.


Safety is your responsibility and it is not just your safety thats involved