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I Forge Iron

A standard anvil base?


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Hey Mr. southshoresmith, I have taken no offence by your words. But I do admit they exasperate me to no end. And ok you don’t think Mr. Hofi is a ‘superb’ smith I assume because he not a traditional smith. Then you go on to say that 18th century iron work is ‘humbling’, it is beautiful, but if you went back in time to where it was made I think (hope) you would be appalled by the conditions of the people who worked on it, perhaps you would understand what humble is, hunger and misery will make almost anyone humble. I must be a true nube, I have no idea what a ‘full traditional set up’ is. Traditional from what era 5000BC? Yesterday? What region of the world? Please post some pictures so I can learn, I’d like to be as successful as you.

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I often need to change dies in the course of the day. We have 3 blacksmiths and one power hammer at our company. They all have their own approaches to forging. I normally use flat dies for tooling. But some of our smiths like to use drawing dies or high crown dies. For some of our production work I use dedicated dies machined to a certain angle. I also a lot of spring dies hand held tools and such a la Clifton Ralph style. So people change a lot of tooling around here.

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"We would be badly off indeed if we were capable of enthusiasm only for the things in which we have faith. If that were the case, humanity would still be pursuing its existence in a hole in the ground; for everything that has made it possible to emerge from the cave and from the primeval jungle appeared in its first hour as a highly dubious undertaking. Nonetheless, we have been able to grow enthusiastic over our vision of these unconvincing exercises. We have put ourselves to work for the sake of an idea, seeking by magnificent exertions to arrive at the incredible. And in the end, we have arrived there. Beyond all doubt, it is one of the vital sources of human capability that we are able to kindle enthusiasm from the mere glimmer of something improbable, difficult, and remote"
~ Gasset ~

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Hey Mr. southshoresmith, I have taken no offence by your words. But I do admit they exasperate me to no end. And ok you don’t think Mr. Hofi is a ‘superb’ smith I assume because he not a traditional smith. Then you go on to say that 18th century iron work is ‘humbling’, it is beautiful, but if you went back in time to where it was made I think (hope) you would be appalled by the conditions of the people who worked on it, perhaps you would understand what humble is, hunger and misery will make almost anyone humble. I must be a true nube, I have no idea what a ‘full traditional set up’ is. Traditional from what era 5000BC? Yesterday? What region of the world? Please post some pictures so I can learn, I’d like to be as successful as you.

As far as what I consider traditional I think I said it before anvil, leg vise, and swage block on good solid stands that can take a serious pounding. Lets say North America about 1920 with a self contained air hammer and modern welding equipment. I do not shun modern technology I have a plasma cutter Tig Mig lathe and mill. I also think modern technological has been very detrimental to the craft of blacksmith. Stamped out scrolls pretextured stock cast iron finals and the fact that wrought iron is no longer made at an affordable price. all of this stuff has dumped down and cheeped ironwork. I also don't think one has to live in poverty to do exceptional work. It takes skill determination and years of practice. There is a lot that I said that you basically ignored and I think I made a lot of valid points. I look at the old work as something to aspire to not something to stop me from developing as a craftsman. I am going to leave Hofi alone at this point but I stand by all I said.
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"We would be badly off indeed if we were capable of enthusiasm only for the things in which we have faith. If that were the case, humanity would still be pursuing its existence in a hole in the ground; for everything that has made it possible to emerge from the cave and from the primeval jungle appeared in its first hour as a highly dubious undertaking. Nonetheless, we have been able to grow enthusiastic over our vision of these unconvincing exercises. We have put ourselves to work for the sake of an idea, seeking by magnificent exertions to arrive at the incredible. And in the end, we have arrived there. Beyond all doubt, it is one of the vital sources of human capability that we are able to kindle enthusiasm from the mere glimmer of something improbable, difficult, and remote"
~ Gasset ~


Inspiring, Grant, thanks, but, what is the point? In simple words that even an old norwegian like me can understand, what are we looking for in this standard anvil base? What is the goal? I clearly do not understand. I already know that I don't want a vise attached to my anvil. I have a couple of those for curiosity's sake, and neither the vise nor the anvil works well on either. Nor would I want to strip the vice from my anvil when it is in the way, nor mount the vice to the anvil when I need one. Often I go from forge to vice to anvil. What then? A tool holder without much mass leaves me wanting for an anvil still, and if I have an anvil, I'll mount my tools in the hardy hole, without wedges. You being a manufacturer, I see your interest is standard sizes, yet me being a blacksmith, all of my many dozens of hardy tools fit my hardy hole or shortly will, when I need one. As well, I make a new one when I need it. The original poster plainly stated he can't aford to buy the two plates he needs to build this thing, yet it is supposed to help the smith too poor to purchase a used anvil.

What am I missing here?

Trying to be openminded, but I just don't see how this device helps or what purpose it serves. Standardized tools sizes fora trade known for being able to make their own tools? What? Can't make a tool? Best practice and learn making tools then, as thats the way to;
1. Learn forging
2. Have the tools you need.

Please, correct me where I am wrong.

Original poster, If you lose the sarcasm and anger, you might get further in this endeavor.
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Hey Mr. southshoresmith, I am impressed, that looks like a nice busy comfortable well equipped shop. I must admit I would love such a set up. You are no doubt lucky, talented and smart choose one or all three labels however you see fit, you’ll hear no argument from me. I and many others I’m sure would consider giving an arm and a leg to have access to such a nice shop. I hope you enjoy working there for as many years as pleases you. Perhaps you will share some of the ‘secrets’ of running such an operation, if you don't feel comfortable about doing so here I for one will follow you to your own.

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In my humble opinion -
It seems that the suggestion to build a mock-up is a good one, limited costs shouldn't be an issue. Use wood for your design base. Scraps abound almost anywhere and modification/design changes shouldn't entail a lot of $$$, just your time. Many a wonderful tool started out as some plywood and nails first until something workable could be fine tuned.

During the discussions that went on with Nakedanvil's universal thing there were many different ideas about what could work ... those of us watching had the priveledge of seeing his work in progress (to a point) and it really helped to understand where he was going. If we were all together we could get some paper, and over some libation we could try several ideas quickly. Short of that it seems that we are trying to figure out what it is that Red Green is actually striving for. A base for holding forms/tools that will allow adaptability when hammering hot stuff. Something that will be "affordable" for those with little or no money that at some point many (thousands?) are in possession of and who once they have the base need attachments ... yes/no? Most tools start with the end users driving manufacturers to make'm cheaper and faster.

Any student of metal working has found that in developed countries anvils, post vises, swage blocks and their ilk work fine. In undeveloped countries the adage about something hard to hit on with something hard to strike with is a fact driven by abject proverty. Neither of those extremes are dead ends, just folks living within the realms of reality. So, who's this thing for??? Like many other stubborn people, I chose to find a way to make my own stuff for as little as possible from whatever I can find. It pleases me to no end to find that I can take tin cans, some found pieces of no-hub black pipe, a few scrounged up clamps and the motor out of an electric leaf blower and craft a very fine blower for my forge - thank you very much. I wish to God that I had the skill to weld together 1-200#'s of some steel and cut holes in it and somehow convince a "manufacturer" to offer me some parts that would do more than provide a flat surface. Synclastic curves anyone???

Take the bait and build a mock up using your drawings, from whatever you can find that will represent the shapes you want ... put it up for everyone to see. I really do believe that the major obstacles you face has been asked a couple of times; who is it for, who has the stuff to build'em with and what is a ball park figure for getting it built? Take it from someone who understands marketing, first you define your end user, then you find out what they need, then you find an unfilled niche and try to fill it. The people who make tongs, hardy tools, blowers, power
hammers and the like have done that homework first.

I continue to wish you good luck in your pursuit -

Tim

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Good day Mr. arftist, let me assure you I’m not angry, at times my poor choice of words and odd sense of placement and timing can cause me to appear to display unintended emotion or even the lack of proper emotion at the proper times, particularly in print. True, this is not your problem, and may seem a poor excuse to someone who does not understand, so let me apologize. If I have offended you with my words it was unintentional, I’m simply trying to get my point across. I am at fault in post 20 I did try to be what I thought was ‘tongue in cheek’ with the lines ’ I understand you don’t want to fiddle with any silly thing that is not a traditional blacksmith tool.’ and ‘And while I would like to believe this tool base is a good idea, you are again right quality used blacksmithing tools are cheap and plentiful. The new anvil and tool market must be crying their eyes out with no sales.’ and may have stepped over the line with ‘You’re probably correct also invention and ‘refinement’ as you put it is just an excuse or fools and beginners to waste time.’ . I have been told many times not to attempt humor it goes so easily wrong, so to you and all others reading this thread I am truly sorry if I have offended you and will attempt to curb my tongue.

Grant’s post was indeed inspiring, and spot on in my opinion. I see your question as ‘what can this thing do for me?’ perhaps not one single thing, not every tool will work proper for everybody. I would be quite a fool if I thought it would. You’re a well equipped and knowledgeable smith perhaps you’ll never want or need this tool, I think your circumstances may be a small percentage of the people out there. It seems the ones that may have a need are watching the experienced smiths and listening to their replies, they keep being told to buy junk anvils and tools and see how much they hate the frustration of working with it. I know its hard for you to understand from where you stand, but I truly believe if you had to use some broken down aso to smith with you would chuck it out the door and go in search of a better way. Perhaps if an anvil top meant for this holder were available some guy ready to give up could mount it to a rr tie buried three feet in the ground with the top bolted down tight could get the job done and be proud of his work. It may take him years to get his kit together but at least he has some place to start. This is just one possibility there are more I’m sure.

I have heard it more than once I think that a cheap used kit only costs a couple of grand, and I’m sure its inspiring to the struggling beginners out there to hear it’s a pittance to a successful smith. I’m sure many out here envious of your success. As for me I’m lucky I have a Hay Budden true its 150# but I find it serviceable, a 70# leg vice and a 100# swage block and nowhere near all the tools I want. Would I want a top of the line holder and all the tooling I could conceive? I can say yes, indeed.

I made a huge misstep using the word anvil in the title, most smiths get real protective when their anvil is challenged this is not an anvil replacement it’s a tool holder. I wrongly used the word anvil, what I meant was ‘a holder for shaped blocks of any kind for the purpose of shaping metal with a hammer or any other weapon you chose’ but it seems kinda long. If someone out there could put a word for this object that makes smiths love it instead of despising it please help!! I wonder if the guy who made the first swage block was confronted with, why would anyone want that?? It’s not an anvil and we have hardy’s for all those things, are you some kind of flimflam man?? New ideas are hard to swallow sometimes and improperly presented can cause great distress. It’s also true my financial situation is less than perfect, but the holder is not the tools for the holder, somebody with just the holder would have two blocks of unhardened steel, they may be able to forge something on it but that’s not the plan. The holder isn’t even necessary to use the tools made for it, which is a very important design feature, top tool designs should be independently functional if possible. Perhaps someone will design a top that you would use, you may never buy or build a holder but you may convert it to hold to your vice or hardy hole and you get a new tool you never thought you needed. I don’t see why a smith would be against the possibility of a new useful tool. The idea of standardization is to get as many as producers of tools as possible to build tools so a greater variety of tools are made available. Ease of building the top tools I think should make a variety of cost effective quality ‘dollies’. As for smiths making their own forging ‘dollies’ most will not have the facilities or the determination to harden a tool of any size, but many will I’m sure. As for me to correct you, I’m sure from where you stand you appear correct, however, I would like you to look at the problem many face from their side. Please remember I’m not trying to take anything from anyone, I’m not asking for money only your time and wisdom, and don’t even know how I could make any money at any point with this endeavor. It’s not for me that I’m doing this, I only wish to give.

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How are you Mr. Grant, Your quote was ‘too good’! You appear to be willing to investigate the possibility of a ‘standard tool holder’ but it seems most people haven’t a clue as how this standard could benefit them. Perhaps I’ve made a fundamental misstep; it may be that like most requests for comments the ‘commercial’ interest seems to drive the results. So with that in mind I was wondering if you and others here that do make tooling for sale would be interested in looking into this possibility. Hopefully with enough tool builders showing their interest in offering new tools for a ‘standard base’ they approved of and helped design would hasten the pace. I know not many small businessmen are prepared to invest in an unproven market, but I believe a properly designed tool holder and a few prototype tops demonstrated in the proper venues would drive market interest with a minimum investment. Perhaps we could find someone who does a lot of demos and would use them at no cost, I believe those watching would quickly get the point. I am flabbergasted at the comments I am getting you’d think I was selling snake oil. I would prefer to keep all comments and ideas public but I know business demands are essentially private. Perhaps some type of compromise would work.

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Hey Mr. McCoy,
I think the point is still not understood, my design is not the issue, it’s an example. I like the design I think it would work just fine, but it is not important to the goal.

The goal is tools that can be used on it or independently mounted however the user wants.

Tools of this size would be many times less expensive to obtain or make yourself than an anvil or swage block. In order for tools to be made there must be a reason. Tool makers know there’s a market for blacksmithing equipment but not many can build anvils, swage blocks or leg vices at a profit. Those tools require large masses of steal that require larger tools to form. Most of the mass on these tools are not the working surfaces, they do not require hardening, but they are attached to the rest of the tool so? Transporting or shipping costs for heavy iron is not cheap, it must be strapped to a pallet and shipped by truck, UPS will ship up to 150#. Making good quality forging tools is the goal, and with enough mass solidly attached in whatever way I see no reason why it should not work. Businessmen work for profit… even blacksmiths, they look for demand, there is demand for tools but the reason to build has not been established. Anvils and swage blocks were designed in a different era we don’t live in it. Those tools were considered consumables then. They are not today. While they are beautiful and preferred they are not cheap, or absolutely necessary.

In order to reach the goal tool makers need a reason to build them, hence the ‘standardized holder’.

If enough smiths said they were interested in these tools I assure you the makers will fill the market.

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I could be wrong, but it looks like your universal holder has already been invented, refined, and mass produced, i.e. a plate with holes in it to universally hold differently sized stakes and tooling:

PEXTO STAKE PLATE
http://cgi.ebay.com/981-PEXTO-STAKE-PLATE-Blacksmith-Anvil-NO-RES_W0QQitemZ120523668022QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0fc53a36

I have also seen a smaller modern-made stake plate holder for less than $80 on EBay many times. You can't get much simpler or less expensive than a small steel or cast plate with square holes in it.

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"I have heard it more than once I think that a cheap used kit only costs a couple of grand"

After hear the same thing again and again I built a beginner's kit of forge, blower, anvil and basic tools, once for under $25 using no tool more rare than a 1/4" drill, (no welding!). It was a great forge too; I kept kept it for billet welding for several years. I did it mainly to show folks that they could start out simple and cheap and build their way up.

Perhaps this is why I don't see your proposed set up as being cheap. I will say this: most folks I know that have been smithing a long time end up doing very different things than what they thought they would be when they got started; so having a system that allowed for change is a *good* thing. (eg: bladesmiths doing ornamental stuff and ornamental folks becoming bladesmiths, etc)

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I am going to give you an honest critique of your idea.

1. I don't see how this is going to be cheaper than an anvil.

2. I don't see what advantages it would have over existing equipment. It would be less solid than an anvil and require a certain amount of maintenance to keep in order an anvil needs none.

3. Having a anvil in pieces where the face has seems in it is a big disadvantage.

4. The anvil sections will need fairly accurate holes and dove tails to be made by some process casting milling or something else. If it were cast the patterns would involve several cored holes. if it were machined it would need to be broached.

5. Working out at the end of a horn is going to put substantial stress on the keys holding it together perhaps even bending or breaking a key.

6. Not many can cut a clean square hole in 2" thick plate.

7. It fits none of the existing tooling out there.

8. There is no real demand for such a thing.

9. Smithing is by its very nature a traditional craft. I doubt many will switch to untested anvil substitute that is more expensive than an anvil.

10. This is a silly one I know but people like the way anvils look and sound.

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I was thinking that your idea could hold a cast or cut swage block at varying useful heights. The problem is swage blocks are not standardized either, so it would fit one or two, or need a lot of adjustment between tools.

I think the amount of flame generated in this thread is also silly.

Phil

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It's not the the 50# ASO you are selling against. Its that folks with limited metalworking experience can make a decent anvil from a chunk of discarded fork lift tine for $25 and effort!

Your *system* works better for a pro, not entry level smith and should be designed and marketed as such. If you want to make an entry level set up you need to go way down in your price point because there are *tons* of old decent anvils out there and they are sold quite a bit cheaper than the new good ones.

Get it out of your head that everyone is mired in the past---look at all the new designs for farrier's anvils that sell!

But just remember that New does not automatically mean Better!

I buy anvils missing horns or heels because you can get great anvils dirt cheap that way and I always have students looking for their first set up---shoot I have a loaner anvil and postvise for student's use till they can find one themselves.

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I’m sorry Phil it’s my fault I come across antagonistic to some folks. It’s not usually purposeful, but I can be an old stinker. Hey that’s a good idea, I think it could be adapted to older tools and there may be some way to create an attachment to hold different sized swages. Why not design one and show it? Oh yea if you want to get a patent you might not want to do that. I think I’d hold off any serious investment, as of yet no one has even spoke about what design features would be proper for the holder only that it isn’t wanted. But then only smiths that have a great deal of tooling have spoken I believe, no beginner would risk live and limb in this fray. I may have caused myself to be placed on the ‘black list’ with my heresy. Perhaps if I repent soon I will not face excommunication.

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Hello Mr. Powers how are you?

“It's not the the 50# ASO you are selling against”

I’m not selling….

“Your *system* works better for a pro,”

I have no system…….

“If you want to make an entry level set up you need to go way down in your price point”

Price for what?........

“there are *tons* of old decent anvils out there and they are sold quite a bit cheaper than the new good ones.”

I know I’ve been told, somewhere out there anvils are falling out of the sky, I just can’t find out where.

“But just remember that New does not automatically mean Better!”

OK, but just remember old doesn’t mean better.

“Get it out of your head that everyone is mired in the past---look at all the new designs for farrier's anvils that sell!”

Farriers don’t as a rule I believe worry too much about if a tool looks like a ‘blacksmith tool’ or “romantic traditionalism” they just want to shoe horses. Heck they even use them ‘gas forges’ an you know you can’t weld in that junk. They have many new and useful innovations because they need to get a job done and that is their main concern. Can you imagine a carpenter building houses using only tools from 100 years ago? He would build houses just as nice, maybe better than any other carpenter. Think he would stay in business long?

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Hello Mr. Powers,

You’ve set me to thinking, and you know I’m dangerous when that happens. Farriers may be a good target to get this tool started as stated they just want tools that work. Heck if they could get an anvil top that would work for them (and I’m sure they could) when they beat the clip horn down they could send in back in and have it reworked and have a new top when returned. I think they would like the ability to use whatever weight base they preferred if they preferred a heavy one they could knock it apart and carry it away. I think I need to talk to them. Thanks

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I find this design interesting and after thinking about it, it has SOME advantages over the dovetail anvil. The tooling could be fairly easily fabricated, and the base anvil would be cheaper to make than the dovetail anvil. I though the prices quoted for the material sound high, I have found that flame cutting shops are often the cheapest place to buy plate. I recently had a motor mount cut out of 1" plate and even with 4 holes cut in it the plate was considerably cheaper than a piece of used plate that was very close in size.

However I do agree with Thomas Powers in that the market for these is not the beginner looking for a cheap anvil, but more advanced smiths using more specialised tooling. A mild steel anvil will stand up to a LOT of use and can be customised like Brian Brazeal has done. As well even if you do wear a mild steel anvil it can easily be dressed with a grinder.

While a hardy shank is simple to make and has been used for centuries for bottom tools it is not perfect. Tools bounce around causing a loss of efficiency and the movement can also cause other problems. Both of these alternative anvils solve this problem, however a slot or hole can be punched or cut in a hardy shank and it can be wedged down.

I personally prefer the idea of a dovetail for the following reasons
- I believe the dovetail is a more secure method of holding down the dies.
- holes (bolsters or hardy holes) through the dies do not interfere with the hold down.
- one piece dies are easier to forge or machine
- for fabricated dies the dovetail would be easier to forge than the tang with a hole.

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Hello Mr. Newman good to hear from you,

Your right I think Grants dovetail idea would be great. The trouble is it requires machine work and that starts down the wrong road. The standard needs to be as simple as possible, and should be reasonably easy for a ‘regular guy’ to build. But you may be right it may not be so expensive to have them cut local. I would think it could be offered by a top tool company as an option for tools or even a holder if they chose to sell them. In my opinion the center slot is an important feature of my example, it allows for many slots, holes, hardy points or working hold downs what have you. And I think should be as wide as possible without causing a weak point in the top. I am also of the opinion that all sides be left as unused as possible in the standard allowing as much innovation for smith and tool maker as possible. There may be many better ways to hold down tools to the holder but wedges work a treat and they’ve worked for a long time. Somebody out there may have a better way, speak up. So what’s your take on the center gap? Oh I meant the tooling valley or maybe we should name it after me ‘nut case’.

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Just one last thought, then I gotta go to the tools section and learn about how to make the things I need. Anyone can make, beg, borrow or buy what ever they want for a place to hit hot things. Rocks, hammers, old/new, it makes no difference 'cause we all need different things. Few of us need what a farmer, wheelright, farrier or worker in a steel mill needed. Many of us just want to heat it up and see if we can master our hand-eye coordination enough to make something pretty and/or useful. Percentage wise even fewer of us hope to do this to make any money and almost none of us "have" to do this, thank God!

I am a firm believer in not trying to re-invent the wheel so I stand on the shoulders of those who proceeded me and steal their ideas and listen carefully to what they say. I need to increase my knowledge base while I increase my skill. After seeing the Pexto stake plate I have found the base I need to be able to do almost anything ... can't afford one, but I bet I can make one from some metal I have in my yard or that I can get from the steel yard cut pile for about 50 cents a pound. Then I can go on over to the tools section and find out how to make what I need in the way of bickerns, cutoffs, fullers and so on.

It has nothing to do with the past or a failure to understand the joy and mystic pleasure in creating an idea or finding a tool that meets all needs, at least not for me anyway. It does have a lot to do with $$$ and time. No money that I can commit to tools and never enough time for what I am afraid is becoming an obsession. So, like I said I gotta go now and see if I can understand how to forge weld a hardy post to a piece of 4" box channel to hold my hardwood spoon forming thingy 'cause I aint got no gas/arc welding stuff ... have fun and good luck Red Green!


Oh, by the way, the base you may want to consider is here:
http://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/Templates/cart_templates/cart-detail.php?theLocation=/Resources/Products/Anvil_Tools_and_Swages/Stake_Plate

If the link doesn't work go to Blacksmithdepot.com and search for "stakePlate" ... holds many tools that many others offer for sale and/or you can make your own :blink:

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Aw come on Tim, it don’t take no time to read a thread, and heck if you do you can see what dang fool thing I said today. My reputation stinks, if you hang around long enough you may get to see me tarred and feathered,if not hung, I’ve offended everybody on this forum trying to steal their anvils away. I’ve been talking about new ideas and you know nobody likes that. I hope you find the plexto plate and tools for it work well for you, I don’t know for sure but I think most of the tools designed for it don’t have much mass, so good luck. You’re an ambitious man, you have no anvil and are intending to forge weld, I wish I had your gumption there would be tools for this holder in every shop in short order.

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