Red Green

OK, I’ll go, thank you for your time.

Hey Southshorsemith, If you’re really angry and want to hit somebody do what I use to do, go into a bar and shout ‘I can kick anybody’s xxx in here” It shouldn’t take long, just stay out of xxx bars, those guys are wimps. I have said this and cannot bring myself to remove it, it would only make it worse, it shows I’m human and make great errors. I ask that you don’t judge me too harshly.

Southshorsemith said: “Red Green I got clinkers bigger than you.” It must be hard to get your iron in there, I’d try a new bag of coal.

Good day Mr. Thompson, That’s wild, maybe it’s an advance out the door. Yes, it’s true I spend little time with blacksmiths, or anyone for that matter. Yes, smiths are that, and much more. If you look at the bottom of my first post you will see my name and location. I assume “indication of your professional output” is a question of who are you. I’m a dyslexic high school dropout. I hope that does not bring you to the conclusion that I am incapable of contributing to the betterment of this craft. And duct tape will save the world . I am a nube here, and I do not think my skills as a smith are worthy of comment when so many highly skilled and talented smiths are here to answer. “Your apparent ability to upset nearly everyone” I seem to have the uncanny ability to cause that, my effect on people is like crackers in bed. “I hope that I can be proved wrong.” I will let others prove that one way or the other. “Pretentious nonsense.” Wow, I assume that was pointed at me. What is I said that make you feel that way?

Anvilflower, I’m making an anvil to forge an idea.

Mr. Grant, I’m not playing, and I don’t think this can be accomplished within a few days. You must admit this idea is convoluted and hard to swallow. I don’t know of any objects or set of objects that man has brought forth in this manner. The idea of a mental exercise to create an unnecessary object to use as a model and design field for reapplication of existing and functional apparatus and the creation of new ones, will cause some to miss the point. And resistance to such an idea will undoubtedly manifest itself in some people. If I do come to the conclusion that it is useless to continue here, then I must find a new venue for this exercise. I doubt that I will find any such venue that will not be resisted in some manner, so I’ll stay until that time.

Amazing

Mr. Southshorsemith, I have no problem with existing tooling. Please read post #76 I don’t know how to say it any plainer. I’m really not trying to take anything away. There is nothing for anyone to make until there is a design. Its tools that is the goal, tools like we use now, maybe some new designs we will find very useful. Tools designed to be adaptable to your environment, your style of smithing. If this idea just will not fit in your world, so be it.

Southshorsemith said: “What problems do you see? Tell Me” The only problem I see is someone who apparently wants conflict. I’d like to think we may be very much the same and perhaps your words are not pointed, but only hasty in tone, the true meaning lost in my interpretation. But I don’t think so, so let me say, I am not your nemeses and no threat to you and yours. Have I insulted you beyond forgiveness? At what point will you accept that you’re the better man? What is it that you want?

Anvilflower, you have a nice name, you make flowers? If your asking me if I am going to build a European anvil then no, I’m not an anvil maker, but if you have a pattern you can have one cast at a foundry.

Hello Mr. southshoresmith, “I honestly don't see any problem with the existing equipment.” I know you’ve said so before. “Other than stuff that is not set up right or people not having the experience of how to use it properly.” Don’t take this as a go away it’s not, please stay and continue to comment. But why don’t you start a thread in the tools section on how to properly fit tooling in hardys and such? I’m sure many would benefit from your experience. “You want a universal to holder we have one its called a vise.” Is your comment that the holder should be built like a vice? Interesting idea, how do you purpose it should be constructed? “I asked before what is the problem with a traditional set up? “ If a traditional set up is the same as the picture of your shop, wow, nothing is wrong with it. “You can see various patents in the back of the book "Anvils in America" several of them for elaborate improvements on anvils. One of them is for a anvil with dovetailed in replaceable face. In the heyday of the blacksmith in America when they were making thousands of tons of anvils a year if some body could have come up with a better and cheaper modular anvil it would have sold. Especally back then when labor was cheaper and our collective knowledge of blacksmithing was far greater. Anvils were a were an absolute necessity at the time and their design the result of thousands of years ofmetalworking knowledge. On top of that there are many types of anvils, the cutlers anvil comes to mind. It had dovetails in the face to hold tools that were in constant usage. Do you think a bunch of hobbyist some of witch have limited actual forging experience are going to in a few evenings typing away on the internet do better.” You seem to have a great deal of respect for men who lived in the past and very little for those who live in the present. If you look carefully you’ll see we are not much different, it’s just that were not dead. “If you are doing this because you think its cool or fun go for it and I will stop my criticism.” Criticize away. “But if you think this is going to fundamentally change the craft well I don't know what to say.” I don’t think it will affect the craft at all, it may get some people a few new tools though. “Prove me wrong build one that is so useful that I will need to buy one to stay in business.” Well, I don’t have anything to prove, I don’t know what it is you want me to build, I don’t think I could affect your business.

Wow Mr. Newman you’re one of the people I really do not want to misunderstand what I’m saying. The standard is not for the tools, they are to be made in any way the manufacture wishes, in any manner, out of any material required, attached in any way seen fit. The standard is for the holder that we need to design together, meaning as many people with of course the knowledge and willingness to contribute. When the design standard is completed and a consensus approves of it, it does not even ever have to be built by anyone. It’s not the object of the goal, the goal is the tools made for it. The standard gives manufactures an object to design for, it gives buyers a reasonable expectation of knowing what will be required of them to use it before they make an investment. A major part of the design features needs to address the fact that not everybody wants the same thing. The tools need to be adaptable so the holder must not interfere with that aspect of the tools. Therefore in my opinion the holder should be as simple as possible. At the same time the holder is not an empty exercise I’m sure some will want one, so it should be sturdy, useable and reasonably easy to build. I don’t want to set up limitations or requirements on how to design this holder that’s for all of us to do.

Mr. Grant Yes, read the above post again. Do I seem overly apologetic? I may be, I’ve always regretted the damage I’ve done in dispute, and never regretted apologizing in the attempt to advert it.

Mr. Grant You’re right, I have polluted this thread with my blabbering and unwanted opinions so I have no one to blame but me.

Mr. Powers, I’m sorry, I did not at any time intend to attack you in any way, I don’t know what to say, how do I ask for forgiveness when I don’t know what I’ve done? I still do not understand what I’m supposed to build a prototype of. Did I miss something?

I don’t know the rules here, I’m sure soon I’ll get a bad enough rep. to see the end of my welcome here. I wish I could get this idea off the ground before I get banned, apparently my personality problems have caused a great deal of anger in some people. If anyone out there can see the benefit of this standard please come forward. Take the helm, let them beat me to death, but get the job done.

Jeremy are you trying to tell me that blacksmiths cannot come to an agreement because they do different work?

Come on guys this not about me. I’m just this guy, I can’t wag the dog. Do you not understand there is nothing to make!!!!!!! I cannot bring something into existence that has not been devised. The tools smiths usually make fit a hardy or vice the tools I am trying to get made should fit them too, why is that so hard to understand? I am not trying to take anything away I’m trying to add to the possibilities. I keep trying to get an agreement on how a standard should be designed, and you keep telling me to build it. Build what?

Good day Mr. Powers, Oh I see, yes your correct I can see the ‘system’ you speak of, and it would be cool to have a bunch of tools for a holder, once it’s designed. Dovetails are great they hold stuff tight but they are hard to make. I don’t know what VoTech is but I’ll look into that just as soon as a consensus for the design is reached. There is no use in anyone spending time and money on making tools for a holder that has not been designed yet, unless they just want to build it and don’t care if it will set on the holder or not. As for me signing and dating a prototype, I will probably not be the one who does that. I suppose after a holder has been designed I could drive down to Houston to get steel and get whatever it will require done, but I don’t see me as the one to get the first one built, it would just take me too long to get my poor, lazy….., you get the picture.

Hello Mr. Monster, I not sure if I should talk to anybody named Monster, I make people mad, it might not be smart to rile up a monster. I have a personality fault I’m unable to ‘give up’ don’t know how. I can admit I’m wrong, turn around and start over, but I have to be shown why. I am a firm believer in logic, reason and the limits of physics. Use one of those on me and you have a powerful lever. Can’t be done, costs too much, it’s never been done before doesn’t mean a pittance to me. The biggest problem is that most people don’t still do not understand what I’m attempting to accomplish. Many think I’m trying to build the example I have shown, not understanding I want tools for them. I keep telling them lets design a holder that the tool makers will build for, they keep telling me to build my example, why? It’s useless without a large enough consensus of smiths, we need a “standard” a rallying point that’s what this is about. Ask Grant or Mr. Newman if they would be willing to make tools if say 50 smiths said they would buy them. That’s what I want tools, quality, well designed tools that don’t limit what you do with them. The holder is just to get the tools made. I’ll be the first to admit I have terrible language skills, people rarely understand what I’m trying to communicate to them. So I keep repeating myself till somebody tell someone screams shut-up or punches me in the face. So hey, Mr. Monster would you put that hammer down,…. please?

Hey Mr. Newman, Nice, do you do your own casting? Clean, compact design, looks plenty beefy enough even for those tall hardy hole snappers. Is it a new design, I don’t remember seeing it before? But then I have no stake tools so I may have slept right through that page. There are a lot of those old stake tools out in the world, I’ll bet you sell a few of those plates, especially with the price of the old plexto plate holders! I didn’t know you were a tool maker, but then I’m new around here. I usually don’t get involved with people, I figure why make folks mad if you can just hide. Now that I got old an stuff I figured heck I just as soon get shot as die of cancer or such. So here I am stealing anvils. I have no idea what it costs to cast and refine a tool the size of say the round horn part of the anvil top. Could you give a wild guess for a retail price? I’d offer dimensions for the holder but that as of yet has not been agreed upon. Do you make swage blocks or swage tops? Perhaps I should ask if you have a web page, so hey do you have a web page?

Aw come on Tim, it don’t take no time to read a thread, and heck if you do you can see what dang fool thing I said today. My reputation stinks, if you hang around long enough you may get to see me tarred and feathered,if not hung, I’ve offended everybody on this forum trying to steal their anvils away. I’ve been talking about new ideas and you know nobody likes that. I hope you find the plexto plate and tools for it work well for you, I don’t know for sure but I think most of the tools designed for it don’t have much mass, so good luck. You’re an ambitious man, you have no anvil and are intending to forge weld, I wish I had your gumption there would be tools for this holder in every shop in short order.

Hello Mr. Newman good to hear from you, Your right I think Grants dovetail idea would be great. The trouble is it requires machine work and that starts down the wrong road. The standard needs to be as simple as possible, and should be reasonably easy for a ‘regular guy’ to build. But you may be right it may not be so expensive to have them cut local. I would think it could be offered by a top tool company as an option for tools or even a holder if they chose to sell them. In my opinion the center slot is an important feature of my example, it allows for many slots, holes, hardy points or working hold downs what have you. And I think should be as wide as possible without causing a weak point in the top. I am also of the opinion that all sides be left as unused as possible in the standard allowing as much innovation for smith and tool maker as possible. There may be many better ways to hold down tools to the holder but wedges work a treat and they’ve worked for a long time. Somebody out there may have a better way, speak up. So what’s your take on the center gap? Oh I meant the tooling valley or maybe we should name it after me ‘nut case’.

Hello Mr. Powers, You’ve set me to thinking, and you know I’m dangerous when that happens. Farriers may be a good target to get this tool started as stated they just want tools that work. Heck if they could get an anvil top that would work for them (and I’m sure they could) when they beat the clip horn down they could send in back in and have it reworked and have a new top when returned. I think they would like the ability to use whatever weight base they preferred if they preferred a heavy one they could knock it apart and carry it away. I think I need to talk to them. Thanks

Hello Mr. Powers how are you? “It's not the the 50# ASO you are selling against” I’m not selling…. “Your *system* works better for a pro,” I have no system……. “If you want to make an entry level set up you need to go way down in your price point” Price for what?........ “there are *tons* of old decent anvils out there and they are sold quite a bit cheaper than the new good ones.” I know I’ve been told, somewhere out there anvils are falling out of the sky, I just can’t find out where. “But just remember that New does not automatically mean Better!” OK, but just remember old doesn’t mean better. “Get it out of your head that everyone is mired in the past---look at all the new designs for farrier's anvils that sell!” Farriers don’t as a rule I believe worry too much about if a tool looks like a ‘blacksmith tool’ or “romantic traditionalism” they just want to shoe horses. Heck they even use them ‘gas forges’ an you know you can’t weld in that junk. They have many new and useful innovations because they need to get a job done and that is their main concern. Can you imagine a carpenter building houses using only tools from 100 years ago? He would build houses just as nice, maybe better than any other carpenter. Think he would stay in business long?